Yep as we discussed, and you/I suggested, too big of gear may not allow you to get to the low power you need for this training. Smart trainers can only go so low in power, but since you have a reasonably high FTP this happens less often but we will see.
Yeah, other thing to be considered I am currently just restarting after 3 months of stop (accident and multiple fractures) so in reality my FTP is low. I have set it up at 215w with a guesstimate of reduction of around 60w before the accident (It was 275w back then). May be I should reduce it a bit more but I still don’t want to do a proper FTP test
Sorry about your accident, no fun…
Lowering your FTP might help but it shouldn’t matter. Gearing is my my primary guess now. Yes you don’t need to do FTP test. Really if you do MAF tests and can keep your HR pretty consistent they are interesting to see aerobic progress without any high intensity work. It’s motivational.
Thanks…
That’s what I definitely want to try and this Zone 2 HR feature is perfect for this purpose.
Today (and 2 previous workouts).HR avg was not so far from target (today 118 avg with target 115 bpm)
I was also considering that might be my HR is not going down so fast to the set target as I am really just restarting now after 3 months of forced inactivity, so even at very low wattages I need a bit more to see it going back to target
Will have plenty of time to test btw…
Yep so we should see those average watts just keep climbing at this same HR. It’s just like FTP going up without the suffering
I had a HR overshoot today which i have sent the details of to @Alex. Basically I hit my HR target of 125 after 10 minutes at 163w peak, but the wattage did not drop despite my HR still climbing from 130 to 140 over a 14 minute period.
At 30mins in, I decided the power level was stuck at 163w and i moved the target HR up one beat and then back down one beat and this triggered a drop in the power level and the app worked as it should for the rest of the ride.
Hopefully it’s user error with an easy fix!
Oh wow, that is insightful. That could really be causing some of this. Hopefully my developer can figure out how this might happen since we can’t reproduce it so far.
Could you include the screen shot from the day before here too. I think it is interesting for everyone to see the difference but you could send email to me also.
Sure. Here is the same workout completed the day before, where the app worked faultlessly in adjusting the power to maintain a 125 bpm target.
Hello Alex! See if you can help me! I think my Zone2 will be between 130-151, can you see from the training I did today?
I thank you64f9dcee2e28b4f157ccfc2f.tcx (1.6 MB)
Hi, I can’t tell unless maybe I was talking to you while you were doing this test. Even then it is hard to tell. What is your max HR? Also most people find Maffetones 180 formula very accurate. Since you are strong and fast you might qualify for +10 as long as you are very healthy.
Hello Alex.
Yes, it had to do with the publication, it gives 135 bpm. My maximum is 189. So should I go between 135 and 150 bpm?
My personal recommendation is. if you are going to do a real base period with almost exclusively Z2 then I would do under 136 for a few weeks or a month and watch each workout and see if your power is improving. If it is then you can try 140 for a few weeks and see if it is still improving and then try 145… If you are believing in Maffetone, he says too low is safer that too high. If you are going crazy at 136, ok start at 142 but I prefer going lower. I am training below 123 right now but I am 57.
Yes, I’ll start with 136 and see if I start to improve. I’m going to do this experiment before the season starts. And I’ll be paying attention to the power numbers versus the bpm.
Another question Alex, for when you are thinking about putting the type of training, even in beta mode, through the MTB and road races that we will carry out.
Thank you and a big hug if you are still 57 years old, a young man who has a lot to give.
Yes this is a good “base period” perfect for Oct/Nov/Dec. 2-3 months. If you see it really working you might want to extend it a little longer. It will feel like you are getting out of shape, but most people say after a good base like this they had their best season ever. Partially because they are rested and feeling great for the main season.
I like Dr. Seiler approach, to estimate first threshold (LT1 between Z2 and Z3 in 5+ Zone model):
Measure your resting heart rate after wake up: mine is 50
Measure your max heart rate: e.g. mine is 180
Difference is 180-50=130
60% of that is 78
Add this to rest heart rate: 50+78=128
So I found this for me really accurate, as I’m ending my Zone 2 rides at max. 129bpm. Usually doing Z2 rides at 115-125bpm.
I did a Maffetone/Seiler Mixed approach since beginning of this year.
For determining my Zones I go with Seiler. But tried to keep my max HR during most of my rides under Maffetone HR
180-37=143
So I did most time Z2 rides (HR at 120bpm), if I ‘m doing tempo, tried to keep hr under 140.
I must say this is my second year of structured training, doing last year most times time crunched stuff (maybe 50% interval sessions or sweet spot sessions), so I did remove nearly all hard intensities this year.
Results: Last year I did 150W at 120bpm
Today 170W at 120bpm
That’s a 20W improve in 8month for doing just low intensity stuff.
Cool, yes, I had very similar experience to you. 100% low intensities and big aerobic gains.
My personal thoughts are that Maffetone is more of an expert in this specific area. Meaning he has tested his formula on thousands of athletes, not to mention hundreds of thousands have tried it. He has coached/produced world class winners. Seiler sounds like heart rate reserve method, which in theory sound better than max HR but I looked at studies in the past that said the actual results were similar. That said, this stuff is all a bit hit or miss and that sounds like a totally fine method, obviously it’s working for you. +10 might have worked just as well and -10 might have worked just as well. My belief is it is all about testing. If you are making progress it does not matter So pick a starting point and if you are not making progress then you need to try to figure out why. Now I think San Milan has what I consider a higher limit than what you are describing for Seiler or Maffetone. I would say that 90% of the people fall between 65% of max HR and 82% of max HR using any of these methods. Maffetone suggests its better to start on the low side than the high side. The gains of being right at your AeT or lets say 5-10 bpm below it are likely the same. It’s just that +10bpm is a lot more fun especially in the beginning
The big negative to Maffetone in my thinking is he mostly runner focused. Because of the extra intensity to running it might require a more strict “zone 2.” Like you, I assume 170w feels good. Indoor z2 is way easier than outdoor especially in the beginning with hills. I also always feel that age based of Maffetone is strange but if it works it works, so I just accept it.
Hello Alex and company. Today I did a 3 hour ride in zone 2 between 121 and 136. Because I had to see the different ways in which the R2Tom says it beats almost the same for me as the Maffetone HR
180-45=135
Dr. Seiler
60+78= 138.
But I will say one thing, it’s hard to walk slowly. Big hug
It sure is in the beginning, because you still have that little devil in the back of your mind that is trying to convince you that this low intensity can’t possibly make you any better.
Once you start reaping the benefits of this kind of work, that little devil starts to shut up (it’s been proving wrong). And you start thinking: damned, why haven’t I done this way earlier! I enjoy much more my outdoor time and I’m even improving faster then before. I’m able to get out the door more without feeling tired, I don’t want to miss any of my workout…
The result is more consistency, less tiredness and injury, thus increasing performance.
But you need to get through that adaptation period which can take several months.
Hello MedTechCD.
Yes, what you say word for word is true. But the best thing is that I arrived at the end of 3 hours with very fresh legs. Today I did the roller again for 2 hours in zone 2 from 136 to 140. But it takes some time for the engine to adapt but with time I’ll get there. I’m going to do pre-season like this almost every training session. When the tests start, I’m going to start adding a little load and VO2 MAX. Thank you, good cycling