Steve Neal tempo training thoughts

Training and Performance Fundamentals
21

I started this thread talking about the tempo thoughts with the HR governor at 83%, but as I’ve gotten into this I’m nowhere near 83% when doing longer intervals at 85% of FTP. My muscular endurance fails first.

Tonight I was going to try 2x30 at 85%, but gave up on it after the 1st 30-minute interval because I was feeling some fatigue and I want to go riding with my wife after work tomorrow and this weekend.

I won’t plan anymore intervals this week so if I have a 3x20 and 1x30 in the bank this week that is 90 minutes in zone, so if I ride 7 hours this week with most of the outside rides in Z1/Z2 that is only 21% of my time in Z3 and shouldn’t lead to any over training issues.

I’ll try the 2x30 again next Monday or Tuesday, I look forward to the challenge.

I like Tim Cusick’s webinars. The WK04 I’m referring to is dated now, was recorded Christmas 2016, but I think is still quite helpful.

I’m primarily interested in his base phase and the concept is:

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Dave

22

Yes, I am completely talking about tempo as well. To simplify my suggestion here, I see this HR governor is just a way to increase the length by reducing the intensity which I think is a good idea. Meaning rather than try to kill yourself to the end, reduce the intensity. While I love HR based training I don’t see something revolutionary with this. It’s basically just HR training, the same as many did before there were power meters. Starting with power based, does not change the fundamental training that much, just a slightly different workout. It’s also similar to RPE based which might even be better.

Sorry if I am just repeating myself but I think taking this a step farther is reducing the un-fun parts by taking a more PROGRESSIVE nature to it, starting with shorter intervals and building up as your comfort level allows. Fun suffering is great, significant amounts of un-fun not so much.

8+ years ago every thought you had to do 4X10 threshold workouts to get strong. Now their is more of a recognition this is just a tool in the shed and when you have the right need then it makes sense.

23

The tricky thing (and the fun part for me as a coach) is that, although the basics are pretty much the same for everyone, there are many different ways and approaches to training.

In my opinion, the base, build, and peak phases are much more fluid. You should be training every part of it for most of the time, so the aerobic as well as the anaerobic. If you do only one of them, you will have to “correct” that later.

Let me give you an example.
When Wout van Aert transitioned from cyclocross to road racing, he wasn’t as good as he could be in road racing. That’s because his training focuses on a lot of anaerobic power. Cyclocrosses are races with multiple short bursts of anaerobic power for a maximum time of about one hour. His anaerobic threshold was sky-high.

At one moment, he saw that if he wanted to make an impact in road racing, he needed to adjust his training. So, he trained more in aerobics and lowered his anaerobic threshold in favor of his aerobic threshold.

These two are related. Now, some people are more aerobic or more anaerobic no matter how they train, but the key thing to understand is that a portion of your muscle fibers can be trained to go one way or the other.

This is why you always need to look at your goals and adjust your training if you need to.

Research shows that shorter intervals are more effective. In different ways.

  1. You can keep up the power easier, because the interval is shorter. Therefore the interval is more effective.
  2. you can do more intervals with a better output, which increases time in zone
  3. Training is mentally easier so you will stick with it for longer.

In the end, improvement is not about the training itself. It is about setting your training up in a way that you can have fun and be consistent so you will stick with it for life.

24

Ultimately Alex I think you were right.

I was looking at my past several weeks and noticed most of them had a couple challenging indoor sessions and a couple challenging outdoor sessions too. Not many of these were “rip your legs off” type intensity, but added up to be enough to make me tired.

I was aware that I need to start backing the indoor riding off, but I rested on Monday and figured I may as well knock out the intensity session for the week tonight. I’ve moved on from tempo calling 3x20 good enough and was working towards completing a 4-week block of sweet spot per Cusick’s guidelines of working towards 45 minutes TiZ.

I did 3x10 at 90% last week and this week planned 3x12 at 90%. I completed the 1st interval ok, but early in the 2nd interval it started to hit me – “this isn’t very fun and I don’t even race so why am I putting myself through this” – and about a minute later pulled the plug.

I feel a bit burned out with indoor training and I’m not sure what exactly I want to do next. I should probably focus on riding outside on week nights before it gets too cold.

Dave

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25

Sorry about the mini-burnout but my guess is you are in a perfect position now (without serious burnout or injury.)

Stop riding indoors!!! :slight_smile: Ok, if it is raining or miserable outside or just only have 30 minutes to do something then fine indoor but this time of year is riding for pure pleasure. I say, forget about training for this season and focus your training on next year. Unlike Robert I am a bit more of an old school traditionalist based on annual training (he suggests more mini phases, which I also think is fine).

So I suggest Base+Build+Peak and long performance/pleasure outdoor season which you are now in, so just have fun!! Determine a pattern than avoids burnout but still gives you the benefit of feeling strong from spring to fall.

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26

Actually, we are not that different, Alex. You can only do those mini phases when your base is right. And they only pay off (big time) when you have a bigger plan that will support a healthy lifestyle in the long run. :sunglasses:

That is why I don’t like diets and training trends. Most of them are focussed on fast results in the short term. That is why most people are drawn to them.

But in the end you have to live your life for the next decades, so in order to keep performing in the long run you should always ask yourself: is this something that I will be able to do when I’m 95?

Of course there will be slight changes over the years, but in general this is a very good and healthy approach.

Right now, the latest hype in diets is the carnivore diet. They say plants are not healthy. These hypes only make me laugh. As long as they don’t get to popular.

Over the last 35 years I’ve seen it all. No fat, mostly fat, no carbs, mostly carbs, only protein, no fat and protein together, 500cal, 1200cal, fasting for hours, days or even weeks. And in training it’s the same, only intervals, no intervals, only slow riding, sweet spot, weight training, body weight, etc.

In the end, you need to pick the winners. Which means: are there multiple, well-performed studies that support these claims? Which means it is done with a group of people like you. Not with 10 young pro athletes or 15 obese people who never get off the couch.

You can then take that approach and experiment to see if it works for you, for your body, and for your lifestyle.

Joe Friel said it best: Cycling is a lifetime science with only one subject: you.

So, take it easy and enjoy the way to get to your best self.

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27

Yes, if someone has a solid base then yes you have more flexibility, but I guess my point is I would ideally put a big base or big base+ phase every year. I am not saying for sure they are superior, especially not for everyone, just that I think they are worth testing many times within your life and see if you can get solid aerobic gains and feeling very hungry for harder training and fairly well rested at the end of these longer base periods…

But like you are saying, or Joe Friel said (I don’t remember that quote from him), each person has a unique life and somewhat unique physiology so different things work better and different times. Andrea and I also strongly believe in a health first approach, and Andrea even believes many pros could benefit from putting a bit more emphasis on a health first approach to training/recovery and life.

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28

Most people do more base training than they realize. We always talk about the 80/20 rule. 20% of the time is devoted to interval training and 80% to base training. If you would take an average interval training, the interval time is mostly around 15-20 minutes. Twice a week makes it 30-40 minutes a week. Combine that with one 5-hour ride or 2x 3-hour rides, and you have around 10%.

That is with the assumption that the rest of the interval training is not base or worth any extra and that the athlete is patient enough not to kill himself during base training.

Base training is essential, just as interval training. In my opinion most people haven’t got the patience to build up to a level they can sustain. The start too heavy too early and burn out.

If you take some years to build your performance than you can keep growing.

You shouldn’t start with three sets of 15 reps of 30/15. That is for later. Start with one set of 8 reps. You shouldn’t start with a 6-hour zone 2 ride. Start with 1.5- 2 hours.

Take the time.

29

80/20 is peak high season :slight_smile: not even close to the base I am talking about :slight_smile: When I say base+ that might be a target of 2/98 :slight_smile: We discuss 1:1 but again, I respect your training suggestions but different than my old school / “new school” suggestions. My suggestion is trying periods of longer period of strictly below AeT “Zone 2” to see how long you can see aerobic improvements. Then when you have established a pattern that is working introduce a single session per week of short “+” like short HIIT or something and see if your aerobic progress stops or keeps going. This is not my ideas this is Maffetone and goes back to the old days of strictly doing very low intensity base. I realize most did big, big volume but I personally can do fairly small volume and see long periods of progress but others might not.

2 Likes
30

Resurrecting this thread to pose the thought of doing these intervals using the HR function. I’ve been experimenting with it and think it is pretty effective, but in the winter I only ride once a week at most so I haven’t been able to spend a lot of time on it. I set a 2:30 interval on erg mode at around 90%, which gets my heart rate close to 82% of max, then move to a 17:30 min interval using heart rate set at what would be 82% of my max. I like it, the effort seems constant even thought the power does drop a couple percent over the interval.

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31

Cool. I love creative solutions like this. Yes, I just try to barely hold on in the winter indoors as well… Did do 3 sessions this week, I was proud of myself :slight_smile:

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32

I did have a question with this, if I put on power smoothing with this apply some smoothing to the power number displayed during a heart rate interval? Or just the lines? I saw a similar Steve Neal workout that was basically set a heart rate gov. and go until the power drops 10%. I tried it, but the power jumps around enough it was hard to get a clear idea about when the power had dropped.

33

Quinn,

If you are following Steve Neal’s guideline then 83% is a cap not the goal. I understand this approach starts out at tempo and then power reduces once the HR increases and hits the cap.

The goal is to have the HR drift occur later.

That said your approach makes sense to me and surely won’t cause burnout at once a week frequency.

Dave

34

I see the distinction, but as long as I get the initial erg mode dialed that is more of less what happens, power stays constant at around 85-90%, and then drops near the very end of the interval.

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35

Also, for context, I generally do one cycling workout per week, but xc ski 4-5 days. I find these heart rate base sweet spot/tempo intervals easy to fit in and not fatiguing on a day to day basis.

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36

If you’re interested in more discussion about Steve Neal’s method, some of the forum posts are from Steve himself:

Personally, I found in retrospect that I was just doing too much. I was trying to go for group rides outside and combined that with indoor training and it was excessive.

I think the approach can work well though in moderation.

Dave

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37

Hi Quinn,

Nice to choose the bike for your endurance training. What do you want to accomplish with your bike training if you are an xc skier?

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Hi Robert,

I primarily nordic ski in the winter, bike in the summer. Since my primary races during the year are on the bike, in the winter I just try to ride the trainer once a week and then build my aerobic base skiing. Usually it works itself out anyways, since we’ll have a day of extreme cold or heavy snowfall where I wouldn’t ski anyways.

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39

Thank you for your reply. That answers my question. You do your aerobic work while skiing. My first thought was that skiing is more anaerobic in which case it would make more sense to keep your bike work more aerobic.

That is a nice combination. Have fun with that, Coach Robert