TrainingPeaks/RowErg WOD workouts are incorrect/have almost 2x the TSS/duration

I was delighted to discover that TrainerDay has separate profiles/FTP settings meaning you can use it with a RowErg as well as a bike (though why no SkiErg! :frowning: see my other post…). I already know how useful TrainerDay is from using it on an indoor bike, but to be able to use it with my RowErg; great joy! This is a brilliant development, it frankly baffles me that so many training platforms have been missing such an obvious feature, given that it adds almost zero development overhead. Yes the rowing community may be tiny compared to the cycling, but it is still another source of potential subscribers…

Anyway, preamble aside, so I went ahead and subscribed and connected my TrainingPeaks, which has a Indoor Rowing training plan on the calendar. And it started appearing in TrainerDay on WOD, so far, so good.

Sadly the workouts are being transferred completely incorrectly/have corrupted data. To be precise, they are almost entirely two times the duration and double the TSS. My theory is because there is a bug relating to the fact that TrainerDay does not properly understand workouts that have a combination of interval definitions/steps based on both time AND distance. The TrainerDay workout creator seems to only allow specifying each step/interval based on an exact duration. See the screenshots below for an illustrative example of this bug/issue. The first shows the TP workout as it is/should be:

The second shows the workout as it appeared in the TD app:

As you can see, the total workout duration has almost doubled to 88 minutes from around 46 minutes, which also accounts for the fact that the resultant TSS is nearly double too, as makes sense, despite me having the same FTP value on both platforms.

If we look at this particular workout, it combines both distance and duration steps. So it starts with a 1000m warmup, then four 500m steps. So all distance based. It then has 3 * 8 minute intervals with 2 minutes recovery before cooldown.

Anyway, if we look at even the first portion, 1000m in 17 minutes is clearly way way off. So there is an issue with the power to pace and therefore time/duration conversion.

The short result of all of this, is that the training plan in TP is 100% unusable in TD, which is a massive disappointment, it would have been fantastic to have had the benefit of the TD training graph for completing these workouts, and it would have also meant zero time programming the PM5 (either via another app or directly) to set all of the pace/power targets.

So close yet so far…

Let me know if you need any further specifics to aid with debugging this.

It also shouts to another potential upgrade: enable the workout creator allow the creation of intervals based on either time or distance, based on a conversion formula. For bicyles, that’d probably be something like the 2000cm wheel circumferance, etc. In the case of Concept 2, and therefore for RowErg or BikeErg (and hopefully SkiErg), we know that the conversion factor they use is the following:

  • watts = 2.80/pace³
  • pace = ³√(2.80/watts)

In other words, take a look at the free Concept2 ErgData app, and the way it allows “variable intervals”, rather than simply just a specified unit of time with a given watts value. At the end of the day, all of these metrics are convertible based on predefined formulas and constants; e.g. if you specify 3km and a given (constant/average) watts, on the RowErg you can determine precisely to the tenth of a second how long that set distance will take.

Anyway, I suspect that the import/conversion error and this workout creator limitation are actually one the same underlying codebase issue; i.e. solving for it would soon very easily allow an “upgraded” workout creator.

Thanks

Aren.

Hello Aren, you are the first to ever send a rowing workout to TP :slight_smile: Can you send me a link to your workout?

Yes, as I got down the rabbit hole of rowing, I realize that 95% focus on distance and that is very complicated for us, especially in our training app. Swimmers and runners obviously focus more on distance as well. So while I wanted to go deeper into rowing I realize that distance and pace are bigger pains for us. I can try to get this TP issue fixed though once you send me your workout. It seems like it is a bug on our side but hard to say at this point.

Oh wow, I’m the first, haha. I’m actually surprised!

As I say, tremendous opportunity if TD started also catering for the rowing/erging community…

OK then. Where would you like me to send you the gzipped TP FIT file? It won’t let me upload this filetype via the upload button on this forum post.

This was the workout in descriptive terms, that the TP workout describes:

You could obviously build any equivalent style workout in TP (i.e. mixture of times/distances as variable intervals), and I’m pretty certain you’d notice to same defect.

I don’t know if you are the first but this looks like a pretty serious bug and I don’t know of a ton of rowers here. Just send me a link to the actual workout in TD, just copy it from the URL. I will send it to TP and check as well.

Oh sorry, I misunderstood. Sure send me a fit file to support@trainerday.com

Thanks. Sent

Hi Alex,

I also row and noticed the TD app wasn’t functional for rowing. I figured development is still occurring so I stick with using the Erg Data app for my rowing workouts.

I agree that you may have a great opportunity with TD to pull in more rowers. The cycling features are stellar!

Thanks for all your efforts.

Sorry I did not provide an update here. It’s working for rowing, it just does not work for distance based rowing, it must be time and power based.

Ahh, okay!

1 Like