First, i have to say that being able to setup a target HR and the trainer adjust to it is fantastic. i tried it yesterday and after 4 mn, i kept it in my target zone.
Now my max hr is 193. i have not tested it lately so it may have changed but i can reach 170 and still be able to talk. 65% of 193 is 126 and this is what i set this morning. Trainer day gave me an average of 126 for the 40 mn workout and garmin with chest strap gave me 119. I did the zone 2 test workout but not really sure on how i can tell that my breathing has changed. It seems like i was able to talk the same at 131. Anyway, garmin zone 2 is 128-143. so right now TD is giving me zone 1. now if i look at the zone with Whoop, i am in zone 2 (60-69%). Is garmin computing zone 2 wrong ? which data should i follow ?
It’s not “be able to talk” it’s notice a small change in the way you talk or the way you breath from absolutely normal conversation to slightly more effort. It’s definitely closer to 126. Glad you like the feature.
What about the zone discrepancy with garmin ? It tells me that zone 2 starts at 128 when 65% of my max hr is 126. Are garmin zone wrong ?
Never mind. I searched on garmin forum and i was not using the max HR formula for zone computation. All good now.
You can google Maffetone’s 180 formula. Many people complain about that it is age based but I found it to be very accurate for predicting my target aerobic heart rate limit. He is a true expert in this space and his formula has worked for 10s of thousands of runners and many cyclists as well. It factors in your health and recent years improvement trends, but he plays it very safe as he feels it is better to be under your limit than over. Really his formula should be right below this talk/breathing change. This might be 65%, for some people this might be closer to 70%.
So the middle of “Zone 2” feels very easy at first but say you do 100 days in a row, your power might go up 20% in that time and it won’t be as easy any more.
Top athletes say that it gets to the point that this is so hard they prefer doing intervals at “zone 2.” With running I experienced this that it started out almost impossible to run at 65% because it was so easy and at the end I felt pretty fast and would slow down some times 
Thanks Alex. Got the info. The thing is i am not sure it will work for me. I also need to check my max HR again. Right now, if i use his method, i would get 193-59+5 =139. 65% of 193 is 126. so there is a big difference. I think 139 may be too much if i am supposed to stay in a low intensity workout. I will try to get my max HR and see if it has lowered in the past 4 years.
Maffetone is 180-age ± extras not max hr-age. So this makes them exactly the same
You are absolutely correct. I guess that intermittent fasting will do to you when you wake up fasted and check your emails. Have a great day.
I am IF also for a few years now. Typically 19/5 but went through months of 22/2 as well. 22/2 works much better for me but also harder to jump/stay on the bandwagon 19/5 is easy for me but works for maintenance not loss.
I am trying 18/6. This is my second week. Hard during the weekend with the wife that does not do it not doing it for weight loss. Just trying to see if my body gets better. Seems like I have more energy. Still eating the same numbers of calories.
Yes I prefer a shorter eating window and it seems easy to me now. I do think reduces the progression of insulin resistance and over all healthy even when it does not cause weight loss.
I really would in more ideal state with a 5kg loss but I feel pretty healthy anyway. I would say another step is to follow ideas from the book Glucose Revolution. Such as starting each day with lots of fiber. I start with a big salad and follow it with large egg meal.
Now to lose that extra 5kg I have killed bread and sugar and most processed carbs in general. I am 58 which takes a more focused effort than when I was 53
I will look for the book. Now from the 80/20 workout standpoint , should I still do 20% of my workout in high hr or just stick with zone 2 only for a few months?
On the other hand, when I wake up, I have a protein breakfast mostly. I found out if I eat carbs, my stomach disagrees. I feel puky.
So my suggestion is to go “deep Maffetone” which means 4/5 days a week or more of 100% zone 2, even 7 days a week is good. Do this for 60-100 workouts.
I did 100 days in a row running 30 minutes a day and saw serious aerobic progress and related, at least perceived, health benefits. Do a MAF test, which means just a standardized zone 2 test (our HR mode @ 126) and measure your average power for the zone 2 segment. Each week just do this test. Because of the way this works on the trainer, every ride is a test So once you are seeing progress aerobic progress (average power going up) it should stay consistent for a while. Other signs you will see is originally you might have decoupling where your power keeps going down. As you become fat adapted or fully zone 2 then the power should stay consistent during a 60 minute zone 2 workout.
To make this really work you should kill pre-ride carbs or possibly all food an hour before you workout. This helps ensure you are using fat for fuel. Most protein drinks have a lot of carbs I would guess salads are not so hard on you but each person is unique. Anyway once you have established a pattern of consistent progress you can start adding in a weekly hard ride and see what happens to this aerobic progress. Some people this might slow progress and others it will not.
My protein powder has 4 grams of fat and my milk is low carb. I usually eat an omelet with grilled chicken. So I should be ok for my ride burning more fat. I tried to ride fasted and it was not enjoyable.
Now you said to ride 30 mn. I was thinking doing one hour 5 days a week and 30 mn on weekends not to take too much family time away. Would that be ok?
Now if I ride more efficiently at 126 bpm, would that mean that my average watts will get lower or higher over time as I get fitter?
Appreciate the great feedback you provided.
Common tricky trap you are closing in on.
If you want fat adaption you need to put some easy to get fat in; or ride at least 45 minutes to flip the metabolism to Fat burning (assuming you are not fat adapted already). If you are not fat adapted your body will take protein; (eggs, chicken, protein shakes) and convert the protein chains into glucose and you won’t burn fat. Worse is if you run out of protein that is not yet stored as of all things fat, then the body will continue to make glucose from protein it will just take it from your muscles. This is why sweet spot athletes that don’t pump in the carbs all the time don’t make gains. Those athletes reach a plateau where they break down the muscles they are building. So if not high fat diet try to always ride 1hr 15min to flip to fat burning and avoid protein uptake in the 3 hours before the ride. then you’ll get a solid 30 minute in the fat melting zone. If you are a bullet proof (aka butter coffee) person (Keto or normal diet ); a cup of that a hour before the ride will setup you up for success because the body will go fat hah we have plenty of that coming in; lets go burn some of that abundance.
Protein goes in after the ride; when your are stabilizing…
Wow I have not heard this but it sounds very reasonable. Can you provide a source or sources? I would love to read more. You are ultimately saying what I believe Maffetone is stating but just from a different angle. My experience was that once I was fat adapted I could go on a run for 2 hours fasted without a problem. Ok at the end I was getting hungry but did not feel a shortage of energy other than 2 hour runs were long for me.
So let me understand. I am not doing keto so I eat carbs during my feeding window. In the morning I wake up fasted and my breakfast is at 9. So if I ride at 7 for one hour and fifteen fasted, I will be burning fat for 30 mn and not losing muscle? Want to be sure I am doing that correctly. Thanks for the great input.
Hi Perrotc,
It’s morning for me and a full calendar ahead I will come back tonight and do this reply proper. But yes for now here’s the sound bites I’d give a new client. Want to do a fat burner ride.
-
If you are a Carb powered person, and I means 20th-century carbs Wheat, Sugar, Rice.
You will have plenty of carbs on board, No fuel 3 hours before aerobic rides. Drink water during ride. You will need 30 minutes to burn off the blood sugar you have. At 30 minutes onward you will burn fat if you stay below your Aerobic ceiling. If you go over it you will pull glucose from the muscles instead of burning fat; then you need to do another 30 minutes before you can get to fat so low and slow is your winner. More on this later. (Note if you are a carb person and you do high output; be absolutely sure to put carbs in)… -
If you are Atkins-style Protein powers or Paleo (sometimes Mediterranean diet). You can eat right up to the ride your Complex carbs, easy on the protein. So you want a bowl of spinach, go for it. No Nuts, Steak or Eggs 3 hours before your ride. You will burn fat from about 15-20 minutes in. Pack in the protein after the ride. This is a special case, you can’t really screw up on the short term but you can create a hidden limiter like a wrong turn in a maze.
-
If you are Keto Fat powered or attempting to drop 1-2 lbs of body fat per week. Have your butter coffee 45 minutes before the ride or go in fasted.
The short version is your Brain can only burn Glucose; the brain will protect itself at all costs; when we work on these edge cases you will always lead with your head and where you head goes the body follows;
More to follow; these are great questions to ask; wanting to get there is 90% of the secret so bravo!
Disclaimer: not a doctor just a coach with data…
Hi Alex,
Yeah I’ll see what I can pull up for references. I’ve been so engrained on this stuff for 7 years now that my reading list and videos are hazy. I didn’t set out on this journey to get knowledgable it sort of happened and I didn’t keep a good track of the material we just kept going hummm that’s a solid presentation and match these 3 others we recall so lets add that in. I do think I can work it backwards to sources and that’s never a bad thing. I’ll start that effort this evening Should be fun.
I have read all of Maffetone’s books a few of the multiple times. Can’t wait to see what other stuff you found as your perspective seems unique and you seem like you have it dialed.