A question about 'The Serious Italian' plan and TSS/Stress/Fitness

Training and Performance Fundamentals
#1

Coach Jack got me a ‘Plan: The Serious Italian’ plan. I synchronize the trainings with intervals.icu.
There in the calender view you can see the current and next week of training. Today I recognized, that my fitness score won’t improve if I follow the planned workouts:

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I think the algorithm intervals uses depends on the TSS score. High TSS moves the form curve up, medium/low intensity workouts will lead to a constant curve == no fitness improvement (?)

How can I determine whether training is effective?

#2

Your fitness number has nothing to do whether training is effective or not. And with a TSS of 300 you end up with a fitness score in the 40s. (300/7)
If you want to increase fitness number, you have to increase the Load (TSS).
You can do this by adding volume or adding intensity.

@MedTechCD did a good job in describing the fitness page and their values. I recommend you read these posts in intervals forum FITNESS PAGE - a guide to getting started - #3 by MedTechCD - Guide - Intervals.icu Forum

#3

So, we have a fundamentally very different approach than TrainerRoad for example, they are all about maximizing TSS (fitness) + sweet spot. I would say science has proven and most top coaches agree this is not the smartest or most effective way to get faster. I am not saying it does not work, and it can work well for some people especially for short term gains, but for sure it has very little relationship to “effectiveness.” Cycling performance is more about duration than it is intensity and TSS focused plans tend to put a high emphasis on sustained intensity. Very few elites or pros train this way and no science has proven that increased sustained intensity is better than increased amounts of “easy” i.e. polarized as an example.

There is useful information in TSS and the opposite correlation is true, usually when you are at your best you would be at your highest fitness/ctl/avg tss/week. That is because this is usually when you have been riding the most not because you have been doing the most intensity. TSS is also good for just making sure you are not increasing stress too quickly (TSB).

I followed the TSS / high CTL (fitness) model and I can say this can be fun, and fun is good. Not always the best or the smartest but I am a strong believer in fun. If you want to have a high CTL in Coach Jack then increase the intensity and the ride feel and it will be a much more intense plan.

#4

@R2Tom Thank you for the advice. I’ll have a look at the fitness page guide.
So higher fitness score doesn’t mean necessary higher/better fitness?

#5

I answered this in my possibly confusing answer above. I will try to say it more clearly.

Because higher fitness score usually means more duration spent, then there is a correlation between fitness score and cycling performance. Trying to maximize your fitness score is not a clear way (at least long term) to maximum cycling performance, although it can work but it usually burns you out if you do it too long.

The word fitness it’s self does not have any clear definition so I will use cycling performance. Fitness probably includes strength training which is not clearly correlated to cycling performance.

Chasing maximum fitness score can be fun and motivate you.

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#6

@Alex Thank you. What is the meaning of CTL and TSB?

Before I switched to Trainerday I was just doing workouts/outdoor rides with focus on (relatively high) TSS scores. But I got no real training goal i.e. a long distance race. Now I want to get more endurance for longer rides (>100km), so I can put 180 Watts (for me: Z2) on the pedal even after riding 100km or also get into the tempo zone (Z3) for 10-15 minutes without getting sour or feeling too exhausted.
For the next two weeks I’ll keep the moderate intensity of CJs training plan. After that I’ll probably increase the intensity of the workouts.

#7

Indeed it does :wink:
But for the next time period I’ll be patient and will not focus on the fitness curve

#8

CTL (Chronic Training Load) = Fitness score in intervals. TrainingPeaks owns the terms TSS/CTL/TSB so intervals does not use them (we don’t either but we could because we are partners with them). CTL is the more universally recognized term for Fitness Score. And you can search google for these terms and get more information.

TSB is Training Stress Balance. I don’t know what Intervals calls it. Basically if you go negative for too long with your TSB you are wearing your body down and you get sick, injured, start sleeping poorly. TSB (like all these numbers) are not totally accurate, meaning some people could be -30 for a few days and have issues another others might be able to sustain -30 for 10 days for example. If you are really trying to maximize your “fitness” or CTL, you need to find your own limits for TSB.

So when you increase your weekly average TSS too quickly, then your TSB gets out of whack (goes too negative). “Too much, too soon.” Meaning you are taking risks. Too much intensity too soon usually has more risk than too much duration too soon, but both have risks.

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#9

Yes, it’s safer to wait, if you are in good shape and have a good base and want to chase some short term fitness gains it can be very good and motivating. This is especially valuable towards the end of a build and peak period of training.

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#10

What i meant was, that a fitness score doesn’t tell you anything about your FTP. The fitness value (CTL) is always relative to your FTP. The TSS results from the intensity factor. If would ride for an hour at your FTP (e.g. 300w), this is 100 TSS, if your FTP increases to 330w, and you ride for an hour at this new FTP, this is still 100 TSS. This means that a higher CTL is only possible by increasing the training volume or the intensity of the training relative to your FTP.
However, the TSS or CTL doesn’t show that your FTP is increasing. And at some point, an increase in volume and intensity is no longer possible. So the fitness value can’t increase forever.
The CTL can certainly be used to plan your season and you can slowly increase it until summer or your target event. For a possible training volume of 6 hours, a target value of 40 (TSS 290) is recommended. For 8 hours it is 55 (TSS 390), for 10 hours it is 70 (TSS 490) and for 15 hours it is 105 (TSS 740). I have these recommendations from Training peaks Help Center.
But it should be noted that not all TSS are the same. To increase the weekly TSS by 100, you can ride an additional 2.5 hours at 64% FTP, 1.5 hours at 80% FTP, 1 hour at 100% FTP or 26 minutes at 150% FTP, or 1 minute at 770% FTP. As you can see there are different ways to increase TSS (and therefore CTL), but each has a different effect, some are even impossible, but all reflect the same value.
And another problem is that the stress of everyday life is not factored into the equation.

So yes and no. It says nothing about how fit you really are. But if you know what it means, you can use it to become fitter.

Here is how I will do it. I slowly increase my hours of indoor training, to my maximum hours what is possible indoors. Then I add some intensity. In spring I will increase the hours even more, because riding outside for longer is for most easier. I then increase some intensity again. That helps to increase the fitness value slowly until summer and some gran fondos. The fitness value will reflect what I feel. In fall i reduce the hours, and the fitness value will decrease again. But that’s ok, because I want to reach my target in next summer again and not in winter.

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#11

This is exactly right and sounds like a great plan :slight_smile: Reasonable TSS based planning.

#12

One thing Dr Seiler points out for example is 20 minutes at FTP (100%) after a 20 minute warmup is totally different stress than 20 minutes at FTP(100%) at the end of a hard 4 hour ride. So from a math perspective TSS != TSS (Training Stress). Still from a rough broad perspective, TSS is a fine metric especially when used correctly as you are using it.

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#13

This matches exactly my training experience.

Interesting facts, the weekly amount of TSS ~290 matches my current plan.

This sounds like a very good plan! I think, I’ll do it the same way. Thank you very much for explaining and sharing your experience!

#14

Yeah, that’s true too. There are studies which show that your aerobic and anaerobic threshold will move downwards with higher fatigue during an exercise, especially if you do high intensity stuff. So for example you do a sweetspot interval in the first hour, and then you do the same power in the second or third hour, it maybe becomes a threshold interval. The calculated training stress is the same for those parts, but it’s not the same stress for your body, yes.

#15

Exactly. It’s even easy to create two workouts that are the same TSS but it is very obvious one is way, way more stressful than the other. You can even make workouts that feel moderate, and another one of the same TSS that is impossible. 40 minutes of 105% vs 8x5 at 105%… both with the same duration of rests. Same TSS, one kills you and one is hard.