Advanced workout questions

Last night I tried the “advanced” workout. So I made a plan:

  • Starting with HR based warmup
  • A first block of 30-15 using ERG
  • a rest period with ERG
  • 60-60 with ERG
  • rest
  • repeat
  • switching back to HR mode for cooldown in 2 blocks of 6 minutes

This is the workout:
Trainer Day - Workout: 20231129 HIIT

What happened:
When I started the workout, it didn’t go to HR mode. It was in ERG mode. I had to manually switch it to HR mode and adjust the HR target manually.
When I got to the first ERG block, it didn’t switch to ERG. I had to manually do it (after which it worked fine)
All of the ERG stuff worked fine
When It got to the cooldown part, it didn’t switch to HR mode. Actually, I finished with a 250+watt block and the trainer was stuck somewhere in that region. I then switched manually to ERG mode, put the power target manually back and then switched again to HR mode.
The last switch in the cooldown from HR target 120 to HR target 100 worked automatically.

This is the workout itself:
Trainer Day - Activity Detail

What did I do wrong :slight_smile: ?

I have not tried first segement of HR lately but this was working fine. But if the second one did not switch either that is strange. We have been testing hr + erg segments but not with this active/rest concept from sets and reps, maybe that caused an issue.

It looks like you created this with sets and reps, you can start that way but then you should switch to the standard mode and put ERG in the next segment

I can see a few issues after a quick look

  • For “hr” type intervals, you still need to enter a power target into FTP%

  • I always use “erg” rather than “active” for ERG control rows, and i think that is all that i have ever seen Alex use.

  • Likewise “rest” should be “erg”

Edit: I see Alex has replied. Seems you are sorted!

Oh good point yes, I would enter target power, this might be the problem, just as a dummy value. Really it should be a required field.

Really it should only require ERG on the first one as that causes it to automatically switch to ERG after that active and rest might be fine but since this is new functionality as you point out putting ERG in all of them might be safer.

thanks guys !
So : I need to put a number in the FTP% (which indeed you kind of say in the youtube video, but it was not clear to me if this was mandatory or not).
the active/rest is coming from zwofactory, where I made the blocks. Will change it to ERG.

This session is only a once a week session :slight_smile: So I’ll fix it before next week and try again.

If this works, that would be beyond anything available on the market. And it’s very close to working. I made it work with a couple of manual tweaks ! Great job !!!

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It will work and if there is any bugs they will be fixed. :slight_smile:

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Did an “advanced workout” yesterday : it worked perfect !
Trainer Day - Activity Detail

Amazing experience.

The only minor feedback I would give is that the ramp up of HR within a session is a bit on the slow side.

See the red circle. When you start a workout, it’s fine to have a 5 min “ramp” to your target HR. I tried it within a session, it works (which is super!), but potentially a future change that if you are within a session, the power can ramp up faster. Next session I will experiment a bit with first using ERG to bring up the HR faster and then switch to HR mode for a longer block. The switching is perfect now.

Yes, that ramp up in session needs to be improved. That is my next improvement with this. I am not exactly sure how I want to do it yet. It would be ideal to predict what your power should be and jump quickly to that point (1 jump or a couple), but maybe just doubling the speed after 20 minutes into the workout would be enough.

Now there is a work around. If you know approximately what your target power will be, then you create a 20-30 second ERG ramp, or block of the right power then HR mode will start at the right point.

Why not create a slow ramp test within the aerobic zone and use the slope of the result to steer the power during HR sessions? The app could get that result from the riders history, taking the most recent slow ramp test result.
HR will only be usable for sessions within the aerobic zone, about 10 bpm below AeT (MAF) and around 5 bpm below AT. HR and power have a linear relationship in that zone. All you need is the slope of that linear relationship and predictability will be quite high. Then let your algo fine tune.
Here’s a screenshot in Intervals of my 9 week base period. You can clearly see the linear relation HR/Power from approximately 105 - 140 bpm.

My experience shows there can be a big difference from one day to the next and from a “perfect ramp” to an actual workout, for example post higher intensity like in his example but still we could probably look at current workout, see if how power/hr looks compared to the ramp and adjust from there and target about 10% under and let the HR feature make up the difference. Even just take a FTP ramp test and pull the data for this ramp. It’s a good idea in general. Easier than anything I thought of :slight_smile:

I agree that the absolute values change day by day. But the slope of the relationship gives you a value Watts/beat. That slope will not change very much.
On changes from one interval to the next, you can use that as a starting point. 10 beats higher for the next interval will then be an adjustment of 10 x watts/beat.

Sure, I think since the purpose of this kind of training is not this purist Z2 (never over max) focus then overshooting a bit is not such a problem. But I need to clearly identify what is this purist Z2 approach vs not.

You could use this for workouts in Alan Couzens and Gordo Byrn’s system:

  • Recovery: Up to 10 beats below AeT (MAF)
  • Easy: AeT -10 (MAF floor) to AeT (MAF ceiling). @Ratz suggestions
  • Steady: AeT -5 to AeT + 3-7 bpm. Slightly harder but still quite easy to recover from in 24hr.
  • Mod-hard: This is considered hard work and the goal is to target top of Mod -hard zone to bottom of Hard zone. Target is about 10 - 15 bpm below AT.

In this system, the top of Steady and top of Hard zone are considered ‘Grey Zones’. Avoid those for training purposes because they are transition zones. It’s better to target specific metabolic zones in training and not fatigue by creeping into ‘in between’ zones.
I’m now, after 9 weeks of Easy, moving to Easy + Steady for 4-6 weeks. Then I will move further to Easy + Mod-hard. That should give me some solid base before the new season starts.

The problem is we don’t know someone’s MAF or AeT, and a lot of people don’t really know what this is, not to mention we know their threshold HR but it may not be that accurate. So if they enter 125 I don’t know if that is below AeT or not for sure. But yes I could play it on the safe side around our estimated AeT based on % of threshold HR.

Try to keep it simple…
Anyone not knowing what it is or what the exact value is, should start with 180 - age. Being slightly off is not a problem, I thought we agreed on that long time ago :wink:
If you add Birth year to the profile settings on the web app, you know where to start.