Coach Jack and Time Crunched

[Emmodd]

Hi all.

Is there a way to use the above and limit the training time per week (so that the functional overload is caused by increasing intensity rather than time)? It seems that the increased training stress is implemented by a combo of both more intensity and time as things stand.

If a person has only so much time to train a week then then how can I continue to improve without the training time going up and up - or can’t I? Do I need to adjust ramp rate/intensity upward whilst keeping the hrs at the start of a block the same?

Many thanks.

[aguti00]

You can limit the daily training time here.

And if you want more intensity in that time, go up with the intensity ramp. Keep in mind that certain workouts have a minimum time, that is, there are workouts of 1h:15m, and these will not reduce your time no matter how much you put 1h on the limit.

[Alex]

It’s not perfectly optimized for a stress only plan but what I would recommend is using a small ramp rate like 2 or 3 but just set it so your max hours is the hours you desire. This is less total training time but should produce better or at least as good of results as the flat hours plan. This allows us better control over all to prescribe the right intensities and gives a better plan than setting at ramp rate = 1 but that said if you do ramp rate = 1 and increase the starting intensity you will see that your plan will build in TSS over the plan but still ramp rate 2 or 3 is better. You can also set limits on each day but again that will not produce the best plan.

See example here of ramp rate = 1 and starting intensity being higher

We do need to spend more time focused on your use case. Even if we don’t feel it is as good as a small amount of time variability we do understand if this is how your prefers/loves to train obviously it can work. As many of us know TrainerRoad takes more of this approach.

[Emmodd]

Thanks guys.

To expand, if I’m never going to be able to train more than say 8 hrs a week then either I get the stimulus to keep improving by adding more intensity or else I reach a ceiling and am just maintaining.

There shouldn’t be a risk of overtraining given the fact that it’s only 8hrs of training and so with gradual increases intensity and plenty of rest (which an 8 hr week should allow) I should in theory be able to continue to get stronger (obviously up to a point).

I wonder if the adaptive training will ultimately help pay into this?

[aguti00]

Of course it is possible to continue improving with 8 hours a week. I train 8 hours a week and I’m a decent cyclist (4.1 FTP) in the base phase, obviously it’s not just training, it’s rest, good nutrition, consistency, fun, etc.

This is a typical week of mine, (last week)

and this is the PCM, where you can see the constant progression with coach jack.

So yes, it is possible to improve with adaptive training.

[Emmodd]

That’s brilliant - thank you. Do you always ride 5 days a week? In terms of base, build peak phases how do you typically instruct (for want of a better term) coach jack in terms of starting time per block?

[aguti00]

Do you always ride 5 days a week?

Yes, I always train 5 days a week, plus one day at the gym and another day of total rest.

In terms of base, build peak phases how do you typically instruct (for want of a better term) coach jack in terms of starting time per block?

I leave the settings made by the coach jack by default, that is really the magic, that the coach based on your strava history recommends the best training plan and so far it has given me very good results. The only parameter that I modify is the daily training time during the week, which in my case is 1h:15m. The weekend without time limit.

[Alex]

Andres, there is no way I could have answered this as well as you have.

I think we all have been trained we need to do the maximum amount of time and effort possible. I have 8-hours so I should always train 8-hours for example. Unlearning that is not easy. Just like saying I should always do as much TSS as possible. The right variation causes gains/adaption even when you are doing less some of the time.

I really like when you said this…

“obviously it’s not just training, it’s rest, good nutrition, consistency, fun, etc.”

[MedTechCD]

A constant CTL does not mean you’re not improving. If your ATL and TSB are constant too, it simply means your FTP has improved…
Sometimes I really think that we should add “Work done” in kJ to make this more clear. That should increase cycle by cycle.
If you constantly repeat a cycle of a progressing 8 week plan, each cycle with an improved FTP, you are constantly improving.
If you keep doing the same thing, week after week, (same frequency, time and intensity) you loose the progressing factor and that’s when you get to a plateau.

You will eventually reach a plateau, but that point is way further in time then you think. Only then, it will be necessary to make more significant changes in your training plan. And more time in the saddle is probably what will be necessary at that point. But for some it could also be a short cycle with a lot of HIIT.

[Alex]

Claude, usually you and I have similar view points but either I am not understanding you or I might disagree or at least partially.

I agree that people should not consider CTL the holy grail and saying CTL=Fitness is a bad way to look at it (it drives the wrong behavior even if there is some truth in it) but at the same time I believe most if not all top performing cyclists have a fair amount of variability in their annual CTL. I belive and the coaches I get advice from that volume (refering to weekly TSS) needs variability on multiple levels for maximum gains and without it most cyclists will get stuck in a plateau. I think FTP gains and losses play a small part in this variability for most consistent riders.

[Emmodd]

@Alex bad behaviour how? In terms of the potential to overtrain or something else?

[MedTechCD]

@Alex I think you misunderstood but I’m probably not making my point in a clear way…
So if you have reached your maximal available training time per week, you will no longer be able to increase CTL unless you go the “wrong” way and increase intensity. But after a progressing cycle of 6-8 weeks with a “safe” training plan, your FTP should normally be higher. Thus, if you repeat that same cycle with the new and higher FTP, CTL will be very similar but the total amount of “work done” will be higher because the overall power output is higher. And you will improve again and again.
I’m not saying that you should do that same thing year round, but a lot of newcomers can. And it will take quite a bit of time before they plateau. People tend to think that they need to increase intensity but intensity is relative to FTP. If you plot a chart with “work done”, the improvement becomes visible in that chart while it is not showing in the PMC chart.
But let’s be clear, base-build-peak is a solid and proven technique that provides a variability in triggers to the body and lifts the results to a higher level.

[Alex]

Daniel, so over-training in it’s classic definition is a possible risk but in cycling for most riders does not seem to be such a problem. Maybe over-reaching and burnout can be. But the biggest problem is that because most people have a limited amount of time in order to maximize CTL they push towards more intensity. A focus on more intensity for 4/5 days a week has been proven a less effective training method.

That said, if we look at the chart provided by @aguti00 this is a text book perfect PMC chart. It’s valuable to see that the PMC chart looks reasonable and perfect is usually a safe bet for most people to ensure you are getting a good balance of stress and recovery.

So I would say rather than a CTL focus, having a TSB or ATL as a focus for one of the legs of your plan is good and by optimizing your TSB for example you will end up with a decent CTL ramp rate. So PMC metrics are valuable but more from a verification and risk aversion stand point and not from a trying to maximize your CTL stand point.

CTL has 3 components, consistency, duration and intensity. Intensity is the least valuable and most risky (to reduce your training effectiveness) portion of this metric. The problem is most people feel that intensity is the part of these three they have the most control of.

[Alex]

Oh yes, this now makes more sense and as usual I mostly agree, but something my pro coach friend clarified a while back is that he has proven with his athletes that quality volume variability by itself creates adaption. So small weekly/monthly variations cause mini-build cycles. So don’t build to 8-hours and stick there for long periods.

Secondly regarding a clarification on increasing intensity is you can build intensity but still keep most of your training at a less than ~80% level. CJ takes this approach.

Since this cycle is usually about 20-30 weeks you realistically only get about 2 of these periods a year and this may not work well for many outdoor cyclists that just want to enjoy their performance level from spring to fall.

So below is visually this is what I am suggesting above. The red line represents CTL