Coach Jack - Boost HRV - Lower RHR

Training and Performance Fundamentals
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Hi together,

i started with TD end of March.
My real first FTP was 123 and recently, in a new ramp test, i reached 173. I think this is quite good progress.

My main goals are actually to lower my RHR and boost my HRV.

I started with some CJ Plans but they felt all to easy, it was never a challenge for me.

I started to create my own (boring) trainings and changed to HR Training, when i red about lowering RHR is connected to time in HR Zone 4/5.

I am aiming for 30-45 mins in that HR Zone. Rest (4h) is HR Zone 1-3 (weekly goals).

I recognized good improvements.

My RHR was/is generally high. It dropped from 73 avg to 67 meanwhile and tendency falling.

HRV increased from 34 to 39 in avg.

This achievements shall prove me right, that i do the right thing.
However, i recognized knee issues after the HR4/5 Trainings.

Today i did 1h15 min ride in HR Zone 2 (70% of my FTP) and no issues but far from higher HR Zones.

I am a little bit overwhelmed by the numerous options in CJ.

Therefore reaching out to you guys, what settings you recommend me to reach my goals to lower my RHR and boost my HRV (to increase overall fitness).

I also want to feel tired after a workout and i like a good varity but also wont and cannot ride several hours. Main focus should be in any case to avoid injuries ofc.

Looking forward to your suggestions.

Thanks, Abrams.

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Hi Abrams, you are generally asking for incompatible items at some level :slight_smile: Lowering your RHR is mostly about huge amounts of time at low intensities… Overall you are talking about aerobic optimization which I would say the most proven ways to do this is “zone 2” and HIIT both bring different aerobic advantages. You are not alone, a significant # of people feel like they are getting no benefit if they are not working a bit. The funny thing this is fairly far from the truth.

You have this concept that drives Zone 2 which is called “FatMax” which means the point at which you burn the maximum amount of fat. You can get lab tested to find this point but this aligns with the same idea as zone 2 and in your case probably falls between 65-75% of max HR which is very easy feeling. One way I have seen significant aerobic gains is by doing this intensity (really 60-65% of max HR at that time) 7 days a week for 30-60 minutes, usually closer to 30 but for sure you would get more from 60.

You could do this for 6 months and only this. The problem is if it is not fun, you don’t enjoy it and that causes you to be inconsistent or stop then it defeats the whole purpose. I think having fun is important. Overall just keep doing anything as much as you can and over time your RHR should go down and automatically with this your HRV will go up. zone 2 is just the most efficient way to do this, but zone 3 or even a bit of interval training will still cause these adaptions it just takes longer but if it is more fun, I would seriously consider the fun factor. As your RHR goes down, your power goes up, it actually gets easier and easier. Pro cyclists will tell you zone 2 is not easy and after a long upper zone 2 interval then need a rest.

So you have to decide what is more important (fun with some intensity) or maximum efficiency to improving your aerobic base. So 6 days a week with zone 2 and one HIIT day per week is likely the fastest way to improve your aerobic function.

You feel a lot stronger with some regular intensity is another motivational benefit. Once you answer the above question I can help you pick a plan.

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Great job on the 50w improvement, this is a sign your training is working. I should also ask the question why do you want your RHR to go down. Ultimately I would assume you have a greater goal like improved health or fitness or something and you believe that is a sign than you are getting it.

One thing that tends to happen is if people keep doing a moderate level of intensity they stop seeing gains. They must have seasonal (which does not necessarily mean 1 year) ups and downs (periodization) in order to keep seeing gains year after year. Tons of people just get to a specific FTP and stop at that point and never improve. It’s not to say they are at their limit, just that they are not doing the right training to continue to have adaptions. In many cases this is do to not enough time to train or not enough quality recovery.

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That is great progress, Abrams.

Alex has already pointed you tot he right direction. I wanted to add that it is crazy to do 45 minutes of z4/5.
It looks like you are a beginner. So focus long term, do your long, slow distance, and challenge yourself with some Hiit one or twice a week.

If you’re doing zone 4, start slow with 3x 3 minutes. Build that in a couple of weeks to 2 sets of 3x3. Zone 5 is even less. Start with 5 one minute efforts, followed by one minute rest.

That is really all you need. Make sure that your cadence isn’t to low. You could take your bike to a specialist for a bike-fit.

Have fun, Coach Robert

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Good morning Alex and Robert,

thanks for both of your quick answers.

My general goal is indeed to improve my overall fitness where HRV and RHR are good markers to see these improvements.

I am working with trends not so much with absolute numbers, that’s why I named (monthly) average values in my initial post. If we go to absolute numbers, we talk about 51 HRV and 58 RHR already.

I thought so that it could be a mindset problem.

Since I take my health serious, I think I should invest the extra time needed to new gains.

When I said I cannot ride a lot of time it was more of a motivation thing rather than time issue.

I am very sensitive to heat, so basically, and this sounds may stupid, I also exercise to be more fit to handle the heat much better.

To elaborate more on my current setup:

I exercise Monday, Wednesday and Friday upper body strength, 10 sets of push-ups 30 each. Those days I add some times some 30–45-minute endurance ride with 145 BPM which is round about 120 Watts (69% FTE).

Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday I did 1h with 3x5 Minute high intensity 165 BPM, 180-220 Watts. (here I did not always hit HR Zone 4, sometimes only in the 2nd or 3rd Block)

So, in total I end up with 3-5 rides per week in total 3-4 hours per week.

Due some genetic defect, I got an electrode in my spine, which limit my activities especially outdoors and for lots of lifting exercises.

Therefore, I ride exclusively indoor.

I got a Zwift Ride but I don’t use the Zwift Software stuff etc. until today I did not even turn on the smart controllers. However, its mounted-on a Wahoo KICKRCore where i regulary do a spindown test/callibration.

I also changed the pedals to click system for better ride feeling and more power.

@Robert_UCL My cadence is typically ~85-90.

I am 35 years, 1,70 m with 60 kg – according my Whithings Body Scale I got around 16% fat. Due an electronic device inside my body I would not trust this smart scale results. However, visible fat I got only on my belly.

I think one HIIT Session per week, to add some fun, could be great to give my brain this: hard work = great progress lies. :wink:

Greetings

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Great details. :slight_smile: So in your description, I would say you are fitness first, health second.

Realize pro cyclists are incredibly fit and unbelievably low RHR and high HRV but if you ask pro coaches or anyone that knows anything do not train in a healthy way and health is not the highest priority for any of them. They live on the edge of illness and can’t or most won’t even go to social events because it is too risky. This is generally true for most top athletes.

Also the #1 way to make substantial shifts to RHR/HRV would be through lots of volume, eventually more like 10-12 hours a week in most cases (OUTDOORS mostly). Trying to lower your RHR via intensity or fixed duration is a very high risk strategy.

So I think most important thing is cementing your goals that really match what you are trying to do. Training is fun, for many of us can be addictive. Lots of higher intensities can be fun and addictive and make us feel like we are healthy. The Nike commercials of sweating athletes seems like the most healthy. Any compared to the average person we can be very healthy. So fitness first goal is mostly about how you feel and how you look.

A health first goal is likely more connected to longevity. The perfect image is the old person in the garden or on a walk on the forest or the beach… But health first goals can have different mental images and goals, they don’t have to be connected to longevity.

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To be clear I am not against intensity. It’s a tool in the toolbox. It’s good for solving specific problems. One problem that many people have is consistency, which is one of the biggest problems that exist in fitness in general and if intensity makes it way more fun and keeps you more consistent that can be a primary feature of that tool :slight_smile:

Too much intensity can also make people less consistent because they are constantly getting sick or injured. So it’s never black and white.

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Thanks for the input.

Overall, I want to improve my fitness to feel better but not at any cost regarding health.

Maybe I am thinking too simple, that improving fitness is also improving health. At least on my amateur level. I am not looking to become a pro - they end their carer my age when I just started.

So, it’s not my goal to reach my lowest RHR possible but I want to lower it significantly. So, when I get it to an average of 55 bpm I would be happy already.

Like I said, I see clear improvements from what I have done so far but I doubt that it’s the best or most efficient and sustainable way. Additionally, I would like to follow some plan, rather than making my own since I am not a trainer.

Therefore, I am open for a change and invest more time exercising.
With this knowledge I don’t see huge motivation problems at least for 1h per day.

My only requirement would be to reach minimum HR Zone one which start at 115 bpm for me personally.

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I just wanted to say that heart rates are not equal for everyone. Your RHR may be higher than what some other people have, but what is your peak cycling HR?

If your peak is say 210 BPM then your RHR is going to be higher than someone with peak 160 BRM.

220 - age works fine at a population level, but is not a good indicator of max HR at the individual level.

Best wishes
Dave

Dave

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Hi Dave,

my max HR is 183 bpm right now, calculated and also what i reached within last 12 month.

My highest HR achieved in cycling was 179 bpm.

Greetings.

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Yes Dave’s point is right on. RHR has a strong genetic component and you have no idea what makes sense for you. It’s not a great goal. The goal should be do fun, sustainable, health-based fitness training and a side benefit might be lower RHR, but hard to predict that.

Elite endurance athletes tend to have very low RHR, genetic + trained. Lance Armstrong would often see low 30s. RHR can be measured many different ways. I used to do lots of seriously long endurance stuff. Longest days of 28 hours but even some longer. I am 58. Now because of past life my RHR is lower than most even when I am untrained. In best form I see values of 37 in the night but typical night time readings are around 43 when I am in decent shape. Still in the morning if I really relax my values are more like in the high 40s low 50s… But most of the time in the day even very relaxed sitting in a chair it is more like low 70s, maybe high 60s. I would call my RHR when I am my best at 48 but that is my own personal definition and looking at all these various ways of seeing RHR.

So what is your measured max HR?

So let me explain something you are missing in your thinking and ultimately what you likely want is a monster aerobic system, the result of this is likely a lower RHR. The result of this is also that low HR becomes “high power” and no longer feels too easy or easy even at 115bpm. You might be totally happy at 110bpm when you are a monster if you are producing 170w.

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Not a doctor, coach, etc… and just a normal guy, but I would urge you not to compare yourself to others with a much lower HR both RHR and peak HR to yourself.

If you’re at RHR 73 then yeah it looks like you’ve got a good chance to reduce that through consistent training in my opinion, but I would encourage you to enjoy the process. Have fun riding your bike. Watch your RHR drop as a side effect.

Dave

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I should point out that most of us are not racers here. I understand racing very well and plan to do some “I hope I finish and not die” long endurance gravel races this year but no interest in trying to race as fast as possible or compete for position.

There are for sure some racers here and many very strong athletes. Also via my partner and friend I am connected to the pro / tour de france level race world but again that’s not us. Robert is a long time coach and very health focused but his priority is not podium racers (although he has coached some) but more regular guys like us.

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@dthrog00
@Alex

I forgot to mention that my avg RHR of 73 is my potato level. Completely untrained for three month due a surgery.
Before i did HIIT workouts (body weight etc.)

When i recovered i started indoor cycling.

Not looking to ride outdoor or attend any race due the high risk of a crash.

So yes, i am looking to increase my fitness and health same time with having some nice enjoyable rides.

The values i mentioned, i understand them as good markers for my gains and not as my ultimate goal, nor i compare with others. Especially the HRV is extremely different and not comparable at all.

Just following basic rule of thumb: HRV the higher the better and RHR the lower the better but ofc on individual level.

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Oh I missed this max HR. So 183. So you don’t have to do exclusively low HR training. You should find the perfect balance fun, health and fitness.

So look at it this way. For your body right now sustaining 150w for 1 hour feels like you are doing something. What if you could produce 175w but do it at 120bpm for an hour no problem? Your legs and body feel will still feel this increased power, you are burning more calories per hour than you do today. You just are not breathing hard. I can tell you this feels good.

So you are at TrainerDay because you believe in smarter training, otherwise you might be doing a peloton bike/classes. If you want to do the smartest most efficient training to get to where you have a monster aerobic system, and very likely have a lower RHR. This can be very healthy and a lot of fitness but not require killing yourself. This takes strategic training. This is what I mean by “monster aerobic.”

A goal of a 225w FTP might just mean killing yourself until you can suffer enough to get to a 225w FTP. Having a goal of 175w at 120bpm, still means you have a 225w FTP but how you get there can be very different.

The most important first step is clarifying the goal precisely. You said feel good, unless you are training too hard now, then 175w FTP at 60kg you should feel reasonably good now.

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So from a health perspective. Lots of 115-120 bpm is good. But then strategic intensity is also good. Being only an indoor cyclist I don’t recommend lots of long hours. I don’t think it is fun and the more static nature of the movement is risky from a injury perspective. I avoid cars but I have been riding outside most of my life so feel fairly safe not crashing. It is a concern for me as well so I ride gravel and low traffic roads to avoid the cars.

So in your case, if I were you. I would follow a non-text book recommendation :slight_smile: I would do zone 2,7 days a week for 30 minutes a day. You might want a zone 1 ride one of those days. Then once you have done this for a 2-4 weeks, I would start to make one of those rides longer each week. Get it up to about 90 minutes of zone 2 (115-125 bpm should be good for you). Then do that for 2-4 weeks and start adding in 1 day a week of short intervals at the end of one of these 30 minute sessions. Then once you get there re-evaluate.

This is likely to be the smartest indoor strategy to a health based approach to optimal aerobic fitness. Then seasonally you can go through periods of more intensity and less intensity. And if 7 days is too much consider 6 or 5… Also you can consider multiple 30 minute rides a day on some days. Super high consistency low intensity can work wonders… Without any intensity you will start to feel a bit out of shape, but don’t worry we are bring it back in once you adapt to this most days of the week training.

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So the problem of the RHR / HRV goal is the best way to get there is to start cycling 20 hours a week :slight_smile: I am joking at some level. But it’s like saying I want to go to the store and it is north of here but I am going to go south and I know I will eventually get there. It’s not the best strategy… Indoor only which means or should mean less duration makes it harder. Now you could combine that will lots of walking, hiking, rucking or other zone 1/2 efforts that would help get you there faster as well.

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This is obviously something I am extremely passionate about. Training stress is a form of stress. High intensity means high stress, just like other stresses in our life, this is risky. You need closely managed stress. If you have high stress you lower your immune system and limit your bodies ability to repair itself. So balancing this stress with optimum sleep, just the perfect amount of stress that you can recover from it quickly. Optimizing your sleep, especially with regards to training stress, can all pay big dividends.

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Very interesting @Alex and thanks for all the input and time invested.

Regarding the outdoor issue: I carry an electrode at/in my spinal coord. I need to avoid any slippage, cars are my least concern, every pothole can cause a slippage already and this electrode had to be replaced already two times within 3 years while its meant to be life long implant. Replacement is a surgery with general anesthesia and 6-12 weeks recovery without any movement. Thats why i am very carefully and limit my training to indoor only.

Every day training sounds interesting for me and is something i can do easily.

I don’t get bored too easy indoor, i turn on my fan, plug in my ANC earphones and just ride.

So, to conclude we talk about lots of training in power zone 2 which reflects my HR zone 1.

How to setup CJ? Or is it at the end start free ride, put power zone two and finish after 30 mins?

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Oh yes, outside sounds like a bad idea. If you are using our training app then don’t use a CJ plan for now. Just use HR+ mode. Hope on the bike. Click quick start HR+ and set it at 120bpm. Ride 30 minutes stop. Once you get do this for a while to make sure your body completely handles the 7 days a week and have increased 1 day a week to longer then we can start to consider a CJ plan that makes sense or what kind of intensity makes the most sense. Think of this period of adjusting to 7-days a week as a base period. This helps build your foundation. Your FTP will drop but if you monitor HR vs power slowly over this time it should improve or it will in the future. It’s very unlikely it drops during this period.

Also when jumping immediately into 7 days a week pay close attention to everything going on with your body. As I said if anything feels tiring consider setting HR to 110 or less on 1 or a couple days a week until you fully adjust.

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