Downside to low cadence work?

Training and Performance Fundamentals
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I enjoy doing some of my interval work at low cadences. A common workout I have built is 8-10min sweet spot intervals broken into alternating 2mins 90+ cadence and 2 mins 50-60 cadence. I’ve built up to this and have no knee issues.

I know there is limited evidence and research to the effectiveness of low cadence (or high cadence) work. It seems to have worked for me, and mostly it makes trainer intervals more interesting. Is there any downsides to doing this? Even if there is no benefit to low cadence work, does it hurt anything? Is there a good reason to not do it? Besides the knees, which seem to be fine.

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My partner and best friend came from the lineage that created World Tour pros and TDF winners and low cadence work is one of their staple workouts.

Really, I think almost all coaches agree with doing various types of training and this falls far into the various category, if you look at torque quadrant analysis you are more in that top left quadrant on this page which is something many people don’t get.

Read more here.

I believe it makes knees stronger if you do it right but you should start with shorter intervals and move to longer. Really in the 55 range Andrea would suggest doing Z5… which is way more stressful. We have both Z2 and Z5 low RPM workouts in Coach Jack. So you could also go to higher torque from where you are but easing into it is a good idea.

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Hi Quinnrm,

Good work on the work-outs and a very good question. The evidence is limited because the questions they ask are often the same.

In low cadence research they compare the work-outs to strength training with weights. And, of course, in every research the conclusion is that you can become stronger with weights.

But the purpose is not to find a way to build the strongest muscles. One purpose of of low cadence training is to make the knee stronger in the specific motion of cycling. Another purpose is to train and feel the power you need to climb. You can’t mimic that with weights.

So, low purpose training is a usefull tool to use. For my clients, I use zone 2/3 blocks to strengthen the knee in early season and zone 5 later in the season as a climb interval.

Researh shows that, in general, adjusting your cadence to produce a certain power is not beneficial for amatures in terms of getting the best fitness effect from that interval. You’re own prefered candene is far more effective.

That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t train cadence. I use the warm up to do cadence sessions. They don’t have to be long. You can do 30 second intervals, starting at 80rpm and add 10 rpm every 30 seconds until you are bouncing on your saddle. Take one minute rest and repeat. Important is that you don’t gear up. Choose a low gear and keep it there. Yes, it looks ridiculous, but it is very effective.

The blocks you are doing are good to do too. I suggest you save these blocks for when you have reached a basic level of fitness that you are happy with. Use the same principle I just gave you for the high cadence, instead of gearing up, gear down and keep the speed the same so you have to use a higher cadence.

The benefit of these workouts is that you will be more comfortable with different cadences.

Keep up the good work.

Have fun, Coach Robert

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Thanks for the helpful replies.

I do believe in the usefulness of low cadence, largely because it seems like lots of top WT pros do it and I’m doubt their teams would waste their time and resources on something that doesn’t work. It’s more that I’d like to hedge my bet in case it doesn’t actually do anything. As in, even if it’s not helping, there is no reason it’s making my intervals worse.

Would you suggest a lower cadence for tempo/sweet spot? I also do some 2x15 at 80% usually around 40-45 rpm.

I did build up to it, my approach was to do an outdoor ride at around Z2 on a route filled with steep punch hills about 1-2 min long (which is all we have), and do all the hills at 60-70% of ftp at around 40 rpm. After awhile I started doing the Dynamic Force intervals, which I enjoyed and thought I saw benefit from.

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As you know you have to always take “research” with a grain of salt as there is frequently opposing research but for sure it should be part of the conversation. I would say lots of people that have tried low cadence work at TrainerDay have suggested they feel it definitely has a benefit, myself included. Here is example “research” that suggests it can be beneficial.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26736852_Effects_of_Low-_vs_High-Cadence_Interval_Training_on_Cycling_Performance

So the focus is not pure strength but strength endurance. Obviously for pure strength heavy weights are the best.

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It’s really about torque and the torque formula is pretty simple, I used a 175mm crank length but generally it’s all relative anyway so only if you want to know the exact torque number does it matter. Also there is some variability here. Here is the basic idea below with similar torque levels and approximate mid-point of RPM target. So yes around 47-48 as a mid point depending on actual % of FTP you are targeting.

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Below you can see the formula
= (30 * B4) / (PI() * C4)

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Here is ChatGPT’s response, which usually is looking at a large body of evidence.

Yes, there is evidence suggesting that low-cadence training may have specific benefits, particularly for cyclists seeking to improve muscular strength and torque production. Here’s a summary of what the research and practical experience indicate:

  1. Improved Neuromuscular Adaptation:
  • Low-cadence training (e.g., 40–70 rpm) at higher resistance increases neuromuscular activation, mimicking strength training principles on the bike.
  • It helps in recruiting more muscle fibers, particularly fast-twitch fibers, which are important for explosive efforts and hill climbing.
  1. Increased Muscular Endurance:
  • Sustained low-cadence efforts can increase the muscles’ ability to resist fatigue under higher loads, benefiting performance during steep climbs or time trials where torque is essential.
  1. Better Torque and Power Output:
  • By training at low cadences, cyclists can improve their ability to generate higher torque, which translates to better performance in low-speed, high-force situations like climbing or accelerating from a stop.
  1. Simulation of Strength Training:
  • Low-cadence, high-resistance intervals on the bike can serve as an alternative or complement to gym-based strength training for improving cycling-specific strength.
  1. Cardiovascular Efficiency at Low RPMs:
  • Some evidence suggests that low-cadence work at sub-threshold power outputs can result in lower heart rates for the same power, potentially enhancing long-term aerobic efficiency.

Practical Application

  • Structured Workouts: Low-cadence intervals (e.g., 3-5 minutes at 50-60 rpm with high resistance at 85-95% FTP) are a common way to integrate this type of training.
  • Focus on Form: Maintaining proper pedaling technique and avoiding undue stress on the knees is critical during low-cadence training.
  • Periodization: Incorporate low-cadence training into the offseason or base phase to build strength before transitioning to higher-cadence, race-specific training.

Caveats

  • Joint Stress: Excessive low-cadence training can strain the knees, so careful monitoring is essential.
  • Specificity: The benefits of low-cadence training are context-dependent and might may not always directly transfer to high-cadence racing efforts.

Low-cadence training can be a valuable tool in a cyclist’s training arsenal but should be used strategically and in combination with other types of training for balanced development.

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8

So I guess my final thoughts are, it’s pretty fun, feels like it provides benefit, many pros do it. If you are careful and provide safe progressive overload it should make your knees stronger.

Additionally there are studies that suggest it can be effective and should be especially valuable for stuff like mountain biking, sprinting and/or for people that don’t like going to the gym.

Likely less useful for someone that does high quality consistent leg weight training year round (it still likely is useful or at least might be useful but it’s not as clear how valuable).

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I have Dynamic Force workouts coming up in a few weeks. I previewed the workouts and notice the Watts in absolute terms, aren’t really that hard. So I’ll be turning the cranks at 50-60 rpm for 30 seconds at a wattage that I can easily hold for 60 seconds at 90 rpm (based on my 1 minute power).

My question is do I just trust the process or is it ok to tinker with the power output for the Dynamic Force intervals and bump it up? Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself and the workouts will be much harder than I imagine right now.

Also, I’ve noticed there are no Threshold style workouts in the plan. Which I think is a bit odd since my 2 big events that I’m targeting in September are a 20 mile hill climb event and a 40k TT. I probably should’ve looked deeper into the plan when CJ built it but I decided I would just trust the process and stick to it.

Coming off a recovery week I decided to do both a TD Ramp test and then later in the week throw in a 4DP workout outdoors to see where I stood. What I found out most was that pacing the 20 minute effort was a challenge. Heading into a TT I should know how to pace it but with no workouts on the plan like it would be a challenge.

What I’m planning to do is replace my Saturday Z2/3 outdoor rides with a block of 3x10’s, 3x12’s, or over-unders, sandwiched between an hour-ish of Zone 2 depending on the length of the ride. It will be outdoors and I have a good area to do this.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

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Good questions. Dynamic force is not about hard efforts they are about sustained higher torque. I would say the bigger factor if you should adjust them to be harder is how strong you are and how strong your tendons and ligaments are. If you can squat 2X your body weight then you aer very strong for example and they will be very low risk for you. If you are hard core MTBer going up steep stuff with high watts and low cadence then yes crank it up. If you are not a strength guy or MTB hill climber then you are probably better off starting with a few of these first. After the first two see how it feels. You can go to your calendar at the top and edit the plan and just change it and it will automatically update the calendar.

You are absolutely correct for 40k TTer you should be doing threshold. Long ride is usually something very beneficial in general for aerobic improvement but for the last month of your peak period focusing on specificity becomes ultra important. What you can do is click on the custom plan type and select the sequences you want and replace your long ride with our threshold blocks… For this peak period consider cranking up the intensity. We still believe more in progression then doing the same super hard workouts each week but they can start your peak period as hard and move to super hard right be fore your main event.

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I agree with Alex. The Dynamic force should never wear you out during the training. It is just not that type of workout. You could feel it the day after, though. But different workouts wear you out in different ways.

I wouldn’t put the thresholds in between your zone 2. That basically destroys your zone 2 work. First, it takes a while for zone 2 to get truly effective. That is why these workouts are so much longer. Second, after high intensity work, it takes the body up to 45 minutes to burn all the lactate as a fuel, so it is only after these 45 minutes that zone 2 starts to be effective again.

It makes more sense to either do it at the end of your lsd training or replace on of the interval sessions during the week.

Have fun, Coach Robert

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Hi Robert,

Thanks for the reply. I’ll hold steady on the Dynamic Force work and see how it goes for the first session or two before making any judgements.

As for the threshold work sandwiched by Z2, I get it based on what Inigo San Milan said in the past about how it takes awhile for the body to drop back down into Z2 if you go too hard early in a session. But let’s look at my VO2 max session for today. VO2 max #7, after the final interval at 45 minutes, there is essentially another 45 minutes of Z2.

If this is true about doing Z2 after, then what’s the point of this workout? If it can take 45 minutes to come down then is this volume for the sake of volume? Is there no value to the last 45 minutes other than a cooldown? I’m not knocking the workout, just trying to drill down on it.

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It’s actually two different philosophies here. Coach Jack is very traditional by default. Which means you do your harder efforts up front, although you can modify it to more of this modern Z2 approach. See below.

Main stream does not fully buy into modern z2 and lots of people have gotten very fast without following this modern approach. So it’s more of a personal decision. I am a believer in this modern z2 approach, but I also don’t believe it’s a magic bullet for most people. It can for sure help people that struggle with getting enough recovery and wanting to train more.

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Ok, cool. I wasn’t aware of that feature. Was it added in the last few months? I’ll look into it. It doesn’t much matter to me. I like the volume and it takes me awhile to get to a good area to perform these outdoors and then the return gives me time in Z1/Z2. I can gauge my progress based on how fast I’m able to recover from those efforts and how long it takes me to feel like pushing back up into Z2 on the way home.

It’s definitely something to play around with. I know some coaches like their athletes to have a certain amount of KJ in before doing these kinds of efforts to see and to train the athletes’ durability.

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This feature is at least a year old if not two. And yes, every coach has his or her beliefs and “secret sauce.” :slight_smile: Most of what is important is just getting out and doing something and when you have problems fix them. Z2 is a problem solver… :slight_smile: And one of the best things in it’s recent popularity is it’s good for people to realize that they don’t need to kill themselves all the time to improve.

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Is there a way to apply this to individual workouts or does it change the whole plan? I hesitate to try to go back, edit the plan. I’ve done this before and it disappeared. I think it would be a nice feature to be able to go into the edit mode of the workout and just click a button that has this effect of moving the intensity to the end.

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Only the entire plan. No one really talks about this feature so I am not sure how popular it is. Would need to look at the database to see how may people use, but if you really want that I would start a new thread with a feature request and see if others chime in. We plan on adding AI features it’s possible this could fit into part of that concept.

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Like Alex points out, the most important thing is getting out there and doing things. I don’t want to downplay the importance of theory, research, or myself, for that matter, but training on the bike is what yields results, and there are many ways to achieve them.

It is never the case that an extra 45 minutes does nothing. First of all, it might take up to 45 minutes, but it could be shorter, depending on various factors, such as intensity, your lactate threshold, and your ability to recover.

There is also the point of fatigue resistance, which comes with more training. The thought behind fatigue resistance is that you could do your intervals first, and follow them up with easy riding.
In the last weeks before your end goal you switch and do the easy riding first, followed by the intervals.

The big idea is that in the beginning, you want to be fresh for the intensity part, so you can maximize growth. Towards the end of your period, you want to train yourself to do these intense efforts when you are already tired.

Apart from Pogacar and Van der Poel, who start the final mid-race, the end of the race is where you still want to be as fresh as you can be. Like the Marmotte (Alps edition) that finishes on Alpe d’Huez, Trois Ballons that finishes on La Planche des Belles Filles, Liege-Bastogne-Liege that has two of its hardest climbs in the last 20 km, Maratona Dolomiti that finishes on Mür dl Giat.

Another important factor is that training is very personal too. If you don’t like your training, you will never be consistent.

On this matter, Alex and I are on the same page. I see that many cyclist kill themselves with too much high intensity. Most of the time for a few months a year, just to get into shape and do very little the rest of the year.
It is so important to be consistent throughout the year. Take a short break every now and then, and keep building your load towards different peaks throughout the year.

That is why you have the feeling that you aren’t doing enough right now. That is a good feeling, but also necassary. You are building up towards a peak, followd by a taper, a race and a rest period. Than start the complete cycle again.

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19

Yes for sure, most people using TrainerDay want to increase the efficiency or maximize results from training and this can be highly individual and gives a place for coaches as well as experimentation to help solve these efficiency and stagnation problems.

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20

I played around with it last night for a bit. Seems you can change the various blocks, ie: build and peak. So I went ahead and did that and it seems to have applied the changes for the interval sessions. I still think it might be a neat feature to be able to do it selectively, as Robert said, closer to the peak you want to really improve fatigue resistance, so that might be a nice way to do this.

As for consistency, I’ve done well with this. It’s easy to just look at the calendar, trust the process/plan and just follow the workout.

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