Having to ride in Zone 3 or top end of Zone 2 power to stay in Zone 2 heart rate

[LionelHutz]

Hi All. Sorry in advance if this is a long post, but I’m looking for some advice on HR and power zones for Zone 2 cycling.

I am a relatively well-trained cyclist, currently sitting at an FTP of 290w, which puts me at 4.3w/kg. I ride around 6-8 hours a week, mostly indoors. I had been feeling tired and over trained, and some life and work stress which led me to recently taking a week off the bike entirely. This felt great. Also, my wife and I are expecting our first baby in February 2025. With that in mind, I have decided to do only Zone 2 training for a few months to help rid my body of stress ahead of becoming a new dad!

I researched Maffetone style training which sounded like just what I needed, and although my MAF 180 HR is 146 (180-34 years old) this is actually my heart rate when I’m riding in Sweet Spot, so obviously too high for Zone 2. I researched this specifically for cycling and found that usually this needs to be reduced by 10-15 bpm as cycling tends to produce lower HR numbers than running. I therefore landed on a MAF number of 131, which is more like what I see when in the upper end of my zone 2 power range.

I created some HR+ workouts using the Maffetone warm up and cooldown, with the main section of the workout in HR+ mode set at 128bpm to keep things under my MAF heart rate. The HR+ system itself is excellent, adjusting the erg on my Wattbike really smoothly and gently adapting power to affect my HR.

I think, however, that my HR zones and power zones are out of whack with each other. For example, to stay at 128bpm, which is lower than even my reduced MAF HR (and the middle of my Coggan Zone 2 HR) I have to ride a bit at tempo (220-230 watts) and/or the very top end of my zone 2 power (around 216 watts). This in itself can be rather demanding on a trainer for 90 minutes, and not the “easy” riding I expected from this MAF style of training…

…or maybe I’m wrong and I really should be riding at the higher end of my Z2 power?

My Coggan HR zone (60%-70% of my MAX HR of 188) is 113bpm to 132bpm.

I’m a bit unsure of how best to approach this. Should I just ride in the middle of Coggan zone, setting HR+ mode to 123 bpm? This would certainly feel easier. Any advice/insight would be much appreciated.

[Alex]

Hi, so three different ideas.

High Aerobic Capacity - Intervals
if you read about Mark Allen’s (5-times Ironman winner) experience and I also had the same, if you are aerobically very strong then these below AeT are not necessarily easy. So Mark said he started out at high performance level but his aerobic performance was not very good, after doing lots of Maffetone he was eventually doing “zone 2” intervals.

Lower it
You don’t need to be at full Maf intensity to gain the benefits, -10 is fine.

TTer
One other guy that used to be here was just like you. Zone 2 HR was sweet spot power. He actually could do sweet spot power for hours (outdoors anyway). He had a flat power duration curve meaning he could not sprint very well. I thought the two might be connected. The very TTer nature of his power curve and his strong power to HR ratio.

So if you are idea #1, you may be extremely well adapted now and you may see less benefit from it. Ultimately the goal is supposed be learning to be fat adapted, that you burn fat for fuel. Can you do long rides fasted? I personally would lower it -10 and see how that feels, do your rides fasted or without carbs recently before and do the suggested MAF tests and see if you see improvement over a month, if not, this is likely to be less beneficial for you. Personally I would still do it, but it should not be so hard, probably closer to zone 2 power. Meaning having a base period that gives you some rest before moving to harder build and peak periods. This helps you feel extra fresh for the spring.

[LionelHutz]

Thanks Alex for your quick and helpful response.

I can indeed do long rides fasted without a noticeable RPE increase, so it could be that I am well fat adapted already? I think I’ll reduce the HR target for now, maybe just by 5pm, and see how my power output changes (if at all) over the next couple of months. I might then look to do the high aerobic capacity intervals as per Mark Allen’s training. I could also look to create some workouts where I’m alternating between HR+ targets at low and high end of Z2 every 5-10 minutes or so?

[Alex]

I would say the best is to lower by 10bpm and start with this. See if you see progress in MAF tests. If you do see clear progress then it is working. Maffetone says it’s better to go too low than too high and -10 is fine based on his suggestions. You should also validate this 146bpm value is correct by trying talk tests. It should be very easy to have a conversation, almost no perceptible breadth change over walking. It’s possible the 180 formula is off for you, it’s also very possible you are very fat adapted. 180 formula is estimating your aerobic threshold (AeT), since this is a physiological state, 180 formula is just an estimate of that turn point.

[LionelHutz]

Cheers Alex. That makes sense. When I do the talk test, I’m struggling to talk without needing to take in big breaths at approx 136 bpm. When you say ‘lower by 10bpm’, from which number do you mean?

[Alex]

Ok that’s a big difference so it seems 180 formula is not good for you. Talk out loud, find the point at which it slighly changes and do -5bpm from that point. Seems like it might be closer to 125bpm or something.

[Alex]

Or without talking just pay close attention to your breadth and when it slightly gets harder than walking. Try -5 from there.

[Alex]

Finally you should see no cardiac drift in 60 minutes meaning constant HR, power at 20 minutes is very close to power at 60 minutes.

[LionelHutz]

Thank you Alex for all of these suggestions. I’ll do some HR+ rides at 125bpm and go from there.

[Robert_UCL]

Hi Lionel,

I think Alex said everything here. I always use the talking test to stay in the right zone. As your fitness gets better the power raises and so does your aerobic (heart rate) threshold. I’m almost at 150 and still pass the talking test easily.

You have to remember that not every day is the same and indoor heart rate can vary from your outdoor heart rate, due to temperature for instance.

Keep riding and testing and you’ll figure out what your body needs.

Keep up the good work and have fun, Coach Robert

[Alex]

He is 4.3 w/kg, “as your fitness get’s better.” I think most of us, I would guess even you would like to have your fitness get that good.

[MedTechCD]

I need to find about a 100W extra to get there. E-Bike ??

[Alex]

In this case I need 2 eBikes… Or wait for Elon to create a 200hp eBike that won’t work in the winter…

[LionelHutz]

Thanks for the reply, Robert. Earlier this week I did an 80 minute ride on the trainer with a 60 minute segment targeting 127-128 bpm (bang in the centre of my HR Zone 2) and you’ll see from the Intervals graphs below that some of this interval had me in zone 3, and at the higher end of my zone 2.

Like I mention above with Alex, this does somewhat feelslike it defeats the object of easy endurance riding and I can’t find anything definitive on this subject explaining if I would be best to train by zone 2 power rather than HR, e.g. parking it at 205 watts and sitting at around 122-123 bpm.

When you say keep testing, do you have any suggested protocol? I thought about maybe seeing how long I can sit at the higher end of my Z2 (210-217w) before my HR is no longer steady and starts to drift up, but that is just me spitballing.

[Alex]

The problem is their is no definitive answer… Coach Andrea is my main advisor pro coach for 30 years and tons of strong amateurs as well and he does not use HR for bike training. I would do base training that feels reasonably easy myself. Save harder efforts for a build period that slowly builds up harder interval lengths. Each persons physiology is unique so blank recommendations never work 100% of the time.

For pros they even do upper zone 2 power intervals at times. We can see what Robert thinks as well, he and my opinions are a bit different but he has a lot of coaching experience and I respect his opinion even when different than mine. The same underlying approach to fitness and performance.

[Robert_UCL]

Sorry, missed that part.

[Robert_UCL]

Thank you, Alex.

@LionelHutz, this in itself is a test. Of course, there are specific tests you can do, but the problem with such a test is that it costs you hours that you can’t train.

If you learn how to interpret your body’s signal and explain it, you can draw the right conclusions.

Like Alex said, every body works differently. When you read about research conclusions, you have to understand that they are trying to take an average from these different bodies.
Sometimes, that is easy because the target group is homogenous. In these kinds of studies, the conclusion is worth the most, but only for people who fit the target group.

You can research this topic (zone hr training) for pro cyclists or even better, top 10 GC riders from the Tour de France. These riders are pretty similar, although I would expect Pogacar to be very different from the rest.
The conclusions of this topic would be valuable because the group is homogenous, but only for this group.

If we would apply the conclusions to every rider using Trainer Day, we would get very different results.

On Heart rate, I’m in the middle of the middle.

I know the pro-rider coaches don’t use it. Heart rate has too many variables that influence it. Heat, hydration, fatigue, time of day, and even clothing or how well you are rested influence it.

For the short intervals, your heart rate is higher when you are resting than when you are giving it all because there is a 30-second-ish delay in your body’s response.

Some of these factors are very personal. Power, on the other hand, looks pretty objective.

I think the missing links in measuring performance are blood sugar and lactate. These two can show you directly what’s happening in the body. However, this would make the outcome of every race very predictable and boring.

I say power looks objective because it is much less absolute than they want you to believe.

You can lay down an impressive 4,3 Watt/kg. Your ftp is 290, so you weigh 67kg. Unless you are shorter than 180cm you are the climber type. Would you be able to lay down 290 watts at the end of the Ronde van Vlaanderen (flanders classic) on a very windy day? Probably not. If you are shorter than than 175 I would ask you the same question, but in a mountain race.

My FTP is 300, but uphill, you would destroy me in the first 20 minutes because I weigh 80 kg.

I’ve been tracking heart rate since then late 80’s and back than it was all we had. And it worked just fine. So why not use it now?

But to fine-tune your performance, like pro cyclists do, you need power (and lactate and blood sugar).

Long story short, here is my advice: use the heart rate by looking at the training sessions. Look at patterns.

You are now looking at a bar chart, but the interesting info is not if your heart rate missed the target, but when and how high.

If that happened at the end? No problem.
If you were riding outside and it was on a hill? No problem.
If you were eating or drinking? No problem

Remember that if your heart rate was 130 for 10 minutes, you would have a bar chart like this. Does that mean that you missed your target? Of course not.

I hope this helps. Just keep on riding. Overall, I think you are making the right choice in your situation.
Another question that I think is very valuable is: what kind of schedule did you ride that allowed you to overtrain with 6 hours a week?

Have fun, Coach Robert

[LionelHutz]

Thank you Robert that is all very helpful.

I wonder if I might have been tired around the time of my initial posts above. I say this because I’ve done a few more zone 2 sessions and yesterday spend about an hour at 202w (approx. 70% ftp) and my average HR was comfortably in my Zone 2 range, averaging 123 (save for a spike when I sat up to use my phone to send an email!) and my RPE felt good - comfortable and sustainable.

Re your final question - I was using TrainerRoad, doing a relatively low volume plan riding 4 days per week and averaging 6-8hrs per week, let’s say 7 hours average, but it was mostly high intensity, with 90 minute VO2, Threshold and Sweet Spot workouts every week. This was paired with high life stress. I have a fairly high stress full time job, I was also studying a postgraduate degree full time alongside this, with a 6 month pregnant wife with whom I was doing lots of DIY to get the house baby-ready, and a dog who needed two long walks a day. Fitting all of that in and something had to give, which led to me burning out. I got to a nice FTP of 290 at 67kg. Now that I’ve achieved that, I want to just be healthier - starting by putting on a few KGs - I am 185cm tall - and balancing out the stress in my life. Its awesome being fast on the bike, but I don’t race competitively, I just like to be faster than my mates

I’ve created a number of workouts on TrainerDay targeting power at around 65-70% FTP, and I plan to track my HR as the weeks go by

[Robert_UCL]

Wow, that was a lot to handle. It wasn’t just the schedule that led you into overtraining. You’re approach is great, just keep that up and focus on what you think is important.

Have a great day, Coach Robert