Hi, I’ve just begun cycling this summer, and am now transitioning to indoor training. I basically created a base plan with coach jack, with the intent to do mostly zone 2 training this winter. My first ride was today, and I think I am misunderstanding when to use the heart rate - based training vs keeping it in erg mode. I watched your video on hr+, and have a good idea of where my z2 limit is (max hr of 183, 39year old male) - in the mid 120s or so. But when I started today’s exercise, I had to manually switch to hr mode, and the values were at 92bpm for each “interval” of the “lolygag 40 +cad” workout. Do I need to go into each workout and actually set the target heart rates, or should I keep it in erg mode?
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Hi and welcome,
The Coach Jack plans don’t utilize this HR+ mode yet. I am a hard core believer in Maffetone and “True Zone 2” in general. Which that means spending a period of the year doing a true base. This means either you do only zone 2, or you monitor your progress of HR to power in these workouts and watch for progress, once you see progress you can start adding 1 workout a week of non-zone 2 and see if you still see progress for example.
Most people are not such strong believers in this low heart rate training so Coach Jack just offers Zone 2 power based workouts. For some people either would be fine and for others they can see definite benefits in HR based training. So it’s a personal decision for you. You can follow the regular Coach Jack workouts but on the days that say endurance or zone 2, just press the HR+ at the beginning of the workout and set your target HR and forget about it. 
You will see the power targets but they will be ignored.
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Thanks for the quick reply! Sure, please feel free to make the question public.
Hi, nice that you started cycling.
Alex made some good points. He knows everything about the options within the program.
Let me provide you with a bit more background in the training part.
Power is absolute. It is always accurate and actual. The second you push the pedal down, that force is meassured and shown on your display. That is why most cyclist think this is the most important thing.
But power means nothing if you don’t know how to interprete it. There are many zones, but we can simplify things by using our two thresholds.
There is an aerobic threshold and an anaerobic threshold. Under aerobic threshold is where you will build endurance. Theoretically you an use this speed forever. The fatigue is very litlle.
Above anaerobic threshold is where you ride the fastest, but you will burn out in an hour or even minutes.
It is important to train both of these systems. You will need to do a lot of “zone 2” under aerobic threshold and only a small amount of “zone 4,5,6” above anaerobic threshold.
The problem is, that these zones shift. As you have probably noticed the models provide you with a very consistent patern in zones. 55-66, 65-75, etc.
In reality it is not like that. These zones are very personal, depending on your training and muslce type.
What you need to do is a test. You can do a FTP test to establish your threshold. If you choose the 20 minute test you will have your ftp power and the corresponding heart rate. It is not an easy test, but the more you will do this, the more reliable your result will be.
You will need to do an aerobic threshold test too. This is done using your breath. Slowly increase the power untill you can’t speak full sentences anymore. Check you corresponding heart rate (and power).
As your training progresses, so will the thresholds. For beginners they will change in weeks or months, for elite cyclists it will take a months or even a whole season.
Try to use slope mode too. It is important that you connect power, heart rate, breath and cadence and what that feels like so you can learn how to play with them.
Like Alex said: start with that zone 2 and slowly add some above threshold work, when you’re ready.
Make sure your training room is not to hot. That will raise your heart rate and will misplace your threshold.
Have lots of fun, Coach Robert
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Thank you both for the informative responses. I’ve completed an FTP test provided in TD, and had some average/middling results. I’m planning to follow the generated Zone 2 Base Plan (which is essentially “lollygag”, “fard”, and “gazump”) for 8-12 weeks. Any thoughts on how long I should stay in this plan before switching to adding some threshold or other interval work?
Hi sorry for the delay. I like zone 2 as long as possible but eventually you will start going crazy and want more intensity. If you are coming from doing very little then longer is better but generally minimalists do about 8 weeks and typical is 12 to maybe 16 weeks.
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I too finally pickup back up riding again over the Summer after 20 years off. I too am a big believer in Zone 2 and the Maffetone method. After getting through the Fall with a family trip and some illness ripping through all of us, I finally got my trainer and signed up for a Coach Jack Plan. I am doing a lengthy base period. I actually love Zone 2. I find it rather meditative.
The weird thing I’m finding is that while I’m in Zone 2 power, at times I’m actually in Zone 3 and sometimes even Zone 4 HR. I suspect this has something to do with the roughly 40 extra lbs I’m carrying and having to push blood through this worthless tissue. I can still carry on a conversation at these HR’s so for me personally I wonder if Maffetone HR isn’t quite accurate. Afterall, I have seen a HRMax of 189 on a hard uphill VO2 interval I did months back. At 49 years old I think that’s a huge outlier.
What I’ve done is stick with the power numbers and ERG mode on the trainer and just keep an eye on the HR. As I’m progressing, I’m starting to see the HR come down for the same level of effort.
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Yes, I think as we get older Z2 get’s more and more enjoyable. I don’t think the weight has such a big impact on this disconnect Z2/Z4, it’s more a factor of aerobic conditioning. Also people are different. I knew an older guy here that was high Z3 power and low Z2 HR (opposite of you), so he could ride sweet spot for 4+ hours. But generally training will bring this closer together. I could explain more but you get the point.
I think most of us want to think we are outliers… At 48 my max HR was 186 but I was still training strictly below 132 (.5% of my time was above). I would follow Maffetone’s protocol exactly. Which is error on the low side… Meaning for you
- Strictly under 131/132 (Maffetone says even -10 should produce good results so that is 121-ish…)
- Do a maf test each week
- Once you see consistent progress 3 weeks in a row on maf test you can try increasing by 5bpm and see if you continue to increase. You can try it 3 more times, if you want to increase 5 more go ahead.
As long as you are doing your rides fasted / no pre ride carbs… and seeing aerobic progress you are fine. As you see progress your power will be increasing for your HR target and eventually high Z2 HR should be more like low Z3 power and that makes you more average/reasonable. If you stop seeing progress start over with Maffetone’s 180 suggestion and see if you can restart your progress.
This is the most “right” way to do it but if you are just starting their is a reasonable chance that anything will produce aerobic progress. I would say that fun that drives consistency should be just as much a priority or more so than perfect Maffetone unless doing too much causes injury or illness.
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This sounds to me like potentially a case of the ramp test going wrong if that’s what you used to set your zones. The ramp test is prone for some athletes to inflating FTPs causing zones to be messed up versus your real threshold steady state. I much prefer a 30-minute minimum long form test for FTP.
Z2 power and Z4 heart rate sounds off. I don’t doubt that you’re getting a great workout, but it may be tempo and not Z2.
You may want to consider the heart rate reserve method instead of Maffetone. For example, you said your max HR is 189 and let’s assume your resting HR is 60.
If you want to solve for a reasonable heart rate reserve of 55% then:
HR = resting HR + .55 * (max HR - resting HR)
HR = 60 + .55 * (189 - 60) = 131, if you followed that plan then you would try to keep HR at about 131.
See an excerpt from a Seiler YouTube video:
Regards
Dave
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Also very good point. Yes ramp tests can inflate your FTP, they inflate mine by about 10-15%…
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From the perspective of a lifestyle coach, I’d say any workout is a good workout, as long as it keeps you in balance.
There are many ways to do things, and you should find one that motivates you to keep doing it.
This could well be an inflated ftp, well spotted, Dave.
I have never been a big fan of the HR reserve method. I like to keep it simple.
I’m a fan of the 3 zone system. Below the aerobic threshold, above the aerobic threshold, and above the anaerobic threshold.
This system shows you how simple training can be. Although I generally use the 5-zone (HR) system and a 7-zone power system. 
As a performance coach, that makes more sense.
When it comes to testing, an FTP test is fine to use for short, indoor training but not very good for base training.
The best thing is to let yourself be tested with lactate measurements. The problem is these tests are time-consuming and expensive.
The most practical way to deal with this is to use different tests for different training sessions.
Use an FTP test and the results for short and intense training sessions.
Use an aerobic test for longer training sessions. The longer the session, the longer your test.
If you race, use a sprint test to test your max power.
The nice thing about the aerobic test is that you can easily integrate it into your schedule. The other tests need more rest and will take away dedicated training time.
Test your aerobic capacity every 3-4 weeks, depending on the rest week in your schedule. Test the others every 6-12 weeks, depending if you are a beginner or an advanced rider. Advanced riders need more training to progress.
Have fun, Coach Robert
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Thanks for all the feedback. FTP could very well be inflated. I did a ramp to establish my zones before beginning the CJ plan. I wasn’t too suprised at where it landed. I had never trained with power before as it wasn’t really a thing 25 years ago. Even back then, HR was something I kept an eye on but was always going more on RPE.
After the first month of Base I decided out of curiosity to do another Ramp after the rest week and start of the next Base month. It had gone up but rather than setting a new FTP that high, I split the distance and only increased it a little bit. The second month of training felt pretty easy, which I think it should’ve since it’s all Zone 2. However by the end of the cycle, while I was able to complete the workouts, fatigue was definitely setting in. The positive is that my Zone 2 power rides were now almost entirely in Z2 for HR as well, save for the last hour of a nearly 4 hour ride I started to experience HR drift.
Going forward I do plan to incorporate a 4DP type of test where I test the 5 minute power, 20 minute power and 1 minute power all in one workout. Now that I"ve got a few consistent months under me and have a ballpark as to where power should roughly be for those efforts, I have a bit more confidence in tackling something like that.
I do have a bit of a health oddity that I can’t seem to solve that I"m going to search the rest of the forum for before posting anything on it. I believe this likely has something to do with the mismatches in HR and Power Zones but we’ll see.
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Hi LunethG,
You are doing great. What I like about your approach is that you have the patience to take it easy and make it really doable. That is a great way to build consistency.
Keep that up. If you want to consult on your oddity, just send me a private email. Free of charge.
Have fun, Coach Robert