Which are better?
Here is another thing the TR team has looked at. Summarised in 90 seconds or so.
I could tell you hundreds of stories like this from our data. It’s nice and feels valuable but it’s very easy to paint what ever picture you want to when you keep the data so generic like this. This is like a science study without any details. No scientific journal would ever publish info in this format. TR is excellent at marketing. If people trust this it’s fine, just feeling like you have a plan or a strategy you trust is valuable in itself.
I am not saying they are doing anything wrong. They did some analysis, came up with a pattern, they presented it. It’s just I have done a lot of this type of analysis and it is so easy to take many subsets of this “"100k users” boil it down to 5k of them to paint different pictures of what works. Not to mention the average or median does not make the rule.
Not trying to be a pesimist. Nothing wrong it’s just over under = threshold, there is no magic in a little over and a little under that is provable. Most people don’t even have an accurate FTP based on today’s lactate levels, so it’s most likely a little over and a little more over.
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I’m not on Instagram and can’t get the link to work.
I would say on-offs vs longer VO2 intervals is probably at the marginal gains level, if someone is targeting VO2 improvement it is more important to do the work and which version you do is a lesser concern IMHO.
Personally, I’ve changed my perspective a bit on training. I’m moved from a viewpoint of “I’m a cyclist” to “I’m a normal guy who recreationally rides bikes”. It sounds really similar, but I find there’s a big difference in what that means.
I don’t really like VO2 max intervals so I’m not doing them 
I would rather do something fun.
Dave
I am very proud of you!!! Believe it or not this is frequently the same advice Andrea would give to pros. Have more fun!!!
Yes trying to claim threshold is better than vo2max is a stretch… it’s like saying a truck is better than a car… I guess for the American’s here it might be true
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VO2 max intervals are a bit of Type 2 Fun.
The correlation between higher VO2 max and longevity / healthspan is enough to keep making me put a VO2 max session on the schedule now and then.
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IMO when you can sustain long VO2 max intervals longer than 2-3 min then you’re pushing harder to move your power curve higher when it used to start declining.
In other words, if your intervals get over 120% become longer and longer, it means you’re getting stronger and your FTP increased. Thus you’re doing Threshold intervals instead.
VO2Max is gonna increase your power and O2 intake capacity and processing. It allows you perform very quick and strong 1 - 2 min sprints during a ride-race
tnx for sharing @Ivegotabike !
I think that this article is showing some obvious things and is not very valuable for the points already reported by @Alex
1st one “When we ran the same work-matched comparison at threshold, the riders doing over-unders set far more new hour-power PRs than the ones grinding steady threshold intervals”. This is obvious, Over Unders work on improving lactate clearance, that is the main driver used to “increase” the threshold (improving efficiency of the MCT1/MCT4 transporters). On the other way, working near the threshold, improves mostly durability and doesn’t move the threshold up.
2nd one (and more subtle): “on-offs vs. steady VO2 intervals”. It’s very easy to make on-off intervals wrong and transform them in anaerobic workouts. It’s mostly a matter of implementing them properly. On average longer (above 2 minutes, first 90 seconds are wasted due to oxygen kinetics!) VO2 max intervals are better in my opinion because are easier to implement, despite more painful to ride.
3rd (hidden one): there is a bigger hidden misconception that working on VO2 max increases the threshold. But I’ve not found a word about fractional utilization that is the main driver used to decide if you need to move up the threshold or the roof.
These (perhaps too bold) statements come from my experience with training and studying training. In my case my FU is 75% and I decided to work with OU (and not VO2Max).
Tomorrow I’ll have my last OU session of my 10 OU sessions plan (and week after the FTP test).
As long as you agree with what I suggest, then you definitely know what you are talking about
I would say for most people doing VO2max increases threshold, meaning everything increases everything, although if you are at your current limits then squeezing out a little more out anything is hard. You hit a seasonal peak and likely need to reset the loop for more gains. But again what I believe you are saying is more that either to squeeze a little more out or primary benefit or most efficient way. Just a nuanced difference. Meaning the opposite of the basics also holds some truth…. i.e. to increase your VO2max do Zone2. Want to increase your base do HIIT… It’s just you likely hit limits very early in the indirect benefits.
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A point mentioned in the TR short video touches on specificity - choose the VO2 workout format that fits best with what you are training for.
Add to that this anecdote from Coggan about VO2 training
“ETA: Re. point #1: once upon a time, I reasoned that since I could maintain ~90% of VO2max for >1 h, I should focus on raising my “ceiling”. 18 wk of 3 d/wk Hickson intervals later, I hit my highest VO2max ever (5.45 L/min at 67.5-68 kg).
I then raced the Texas state TT, and got my butt kicked.
Moral of the story? Train for performance, and let your physiology sort itself out. In particular, don’t underestimate the importance of specificity (specificity, specificity, specificity, specificity…is there an echo in here?).”
But that’s kind of just a disclaimer. Meaning, point one is “do over-unders.” Point two is “don’t do over-unders.” People are going to walk away from that thinking they should be doing over-unders, when what they should be doing is specificity.
everything increases everything, when you’ve not hit any limit. But as soon as you hit a limit and you want to push it forward you need to be specific. I think we can agree on this.
Over unders make sense if your threshold is far from MAP, vice-versa you they don’t and you should work on VO2max.
Vo2max is just the capacity to deliver oxygen to the muscles (central adaptation). Being able to use it is another story (peripheral adaptation)
Of course while you train vo2max you’ve some byproducts of that work that help to also increase the threshold, but it’s not the most efficient strategy if you’re not capped by vo2max.
Durability is also another important factor. In a race probably being able to sustain 300w for 2 hours is much better to be able to sustain 330w for 40 minutes and after that you drop to 250w.
My 2 cents
Yes, I agree on the importants of training when at your limit(s), you said it clearer/simpler than I did.
Not sure I understand your exactly what you are saying but to clarify I just wouldn’t say that VO2 max efforts are for improving VO2 max (not saying you were suggesting that just clarifying). Ultimately we know your VO2 max is your aerobic capacity which comes from a unique combination of training (mostly hours and consistency) but ultimately represents your base level of fitness not your peak.
Simplification is much higher FTP = higher VO2max regardless of the training you do.
Just clarifying that people confuse VO2max training with raising your VO2max, partially because Garmin will tell you increased after a good vo2max effort because that is how they measure it. Just like most platforms use 20minute efforts as a proxy for 60 minutes but you could be great at 20 and suck at 60.
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Said like that we don’t agree at 100%
Imo VO2max is one component of aerobic capacity. Zone 2 training helps develop the aerobic base and can contribute to VO2max improvements, but VO2max is not determined solely, or even primarily, by base training.
Zone 2 training primarily improves the aerobic base and overall efficiency.
VO2 max intervals (3–8 minutes at high intensity) are generally the most effective stimulus for directly increasing VO2max.
Performance improvements often come more from increases in FTP, LT1, LT2, and the percentage of VO2max that can be sustainably maintained, rather than from large increases in VO2max itself (like you said in the last paragraph of your post after edit)
This is where you are confused I am not saying specifically only zone 2, but I am saying base foundation layer which is usually made up of a mixture of efforts but mostly made from hours, consistency and genetics.
Before you wrote “your VO2 max is your aerobic capacity which as we agree is mostly related to your base level so affected by zone two training as well."
Perhaps I extended it too much or misunderstood it. I know that generally we’re on the same page 
Yes, we are on the same page and yes I hit submit on my phone and drove home with 1/2 an idea
I am not clarifying for you as much it’s just most people should not think “I need to do VO2max” to improve my VO2max. Or I need to raise my FTP… It’s more that “I need to improve everything” and my VO2max/FTP will go up. If your base is at you peak level for the year then you likely need hard higher intensity efforts to hit your fully limits.
Even the idea that improve VO2max improves health. No exercise improves health and VO2max just happens to raise with it. These studies are more about healthy people vs not healthy. Not guys with 80 vs 85 VO2max
Love this topic indeed !!! the gray zone between Threshold and VO2max for me is the key to understand if my fitness is growing or declining.
I just follow my power curve to see it increases after the 10-15 min mark with the time period or season.
For me the goal is getting stronger but capable to sustain the power the longer the better as well.
Also it depends what kind of rider/athlete we are and our goals. It’s totally different for a crit racer, a XL graveler, a XC MTB, or just a 20k daily commuter
Very interesting topic, no just the training, but the nutrition, age, equipment/gear, etc.
Even if it isn’t an athlete’s limiter, I say that doing some VO2 work as part of a training plan is a good idea.
Going through the Base / FTP / VO2 / Anaerobic cycle (even if the V02 and Anaerobic are very short blocks) is something worth experiencing.
Previously I linked to a video by CTS with Tim Cusick that talks about this.
Oh yes, I fully agree, I would say variety in all forms are important for almost everyone. This is why our SFR workouts are so good or our dynamic force. This works a quadrant of the system almost no one works otherwise.
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Oh yes, I agree. Different intensities can be very valuable for a variety of reasons and I think VO2max is a great intensity and “fun.” Far better than 40 minute sweet spot intervals
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