Did anybody every do “STARTS” on bike strenght training? As in the study by David Barranco. I tried to design a session like this:
Trainer Day - Workout Library
Some assumptions:
Will give it a go tonight…
That is not the right link 
It sounds similar to big gear training concept. I am assuming you are referring to this article…
Their finding is that “starts” produce the same results as squats… Since many cyclists hate going to the gym… It might help some I think it’s mostly the other muscular balance you get from squats (back strength) or other areas that are likely the best parts of strength training.
I will send this to Andrea and see what he has to say.
Did those several years ago but stopped doing them after breaking the chain quick link twice… You need to learn the technique to switch to a very high gear just before starting to pedal at full force. If you apply the force while the gears are not fully switched, you risk breaking chain link and or damage rear derailleur.
It does give a good feeling because you see rapid improvement, but you will quickly reach a limit if you can’t find a steeper hill section.
Weighted squats or leg pushes will take you further and they are less risky. Grinding your way up at the limit of your capacity isn’t always a good idea with possible traffic around…
Interesting. So Andrea said the same thing. Meaning he does not like them and thinks they are dangerous. Better to do squats which are much more controllable / predictable. It does have some similarity with SFR but without the predictability and safety built in that SFR brings.
Indeed interesting. I will try them anyhow, I have a plan. Which might fail, but hey…
I’m not planning on changing the chain, but on just switching the smarttrainer from erg to slope mode. And I’m not in the need to nail it in the first second. I can even wait and start from no pedal movement. I will be in a stationary trainer. I understand the risk trying to do this outside.
Feedback tomorrow 
As a coach, I’m not a fan either. There is a lot that can go wrong in a movement like this. The best reason not to do strength training on the bike is because multisports training will ad an extra depth to your cycling.
You can train the muscles that are often neglected on the bike. They will make you stronger and make you perform better on the bike as well.
Looking forward to your feedback.
Have fun, Coach Robert
So, some feedback. Actually quite a lot Split in 3 topics : a technical aspect, a training aspect and a practical one.
The technical : I created a workout based on “slope” mode, as the research describes. It worked, but there seems to be a delay for the slope resistance to pickup. As in : I’ve put in 8%, the first couple of seconds it doesn’t jump immediately to 8%. I could be our favorite app, it could be the trainer. I will get it to work, but I will try something different. I will do the calculation what wattage I would need to do and work in ERG mode. I do HIIT intervals (30/15, 40/20) all the time and those work perfect. Can make this work for this specific thing as well.
I don’t see a “risk” factor the way I’m doing it. I’m not shifting gears and the power output is not like I’m doing 2000W A bit too old for that… I do see this could be a problem if you do these outside. Which I’m not planning on doing.
The training aspect : I fully agree with everything said above. Of course going for real weight is probably much more benefial. That said, jump to the 3rd aspect.
The practical one : I’m one of those : a time constrained 50+ cyclist… I do even have a fitness with weights in the garden. But… my indoor bike is indoors. The weather is really bad. So after I’ve done an indoor ride in the evening, I’m not going to go outside in the cold, rain,… to go lift some weights. If I would not have the fitness in the garden, it would even more more challenging, because then I would need to go to a fitness somewhere. And last but not least : looooong time ago I was a gymnast. Weight lifting was a daily thing. I got a profound dislike for it. Of course I know it’s beneficial, but I’m not cycling to win anything. Beside the fun part of it, I actually like the experimenting with training stuff.
So having said all of that : I will continue to try this. If it would be unsafe, I would not do it. But the way I do it, I don’t see how it would be unsafe. It’s probably not optimal, but it’s likely better than not doing it. And it just adds 30min twice a week to my indoor bike ride I’m doing anyhow. Let’s see in a couple of months what it gives.
Good feedback. My comments
I would say it’s very small chance it is our app, we just send the target, although their may be a dealy in time between switching to slope and then changing the slope so you might want to create a pre-interval that switches to slope at like 4% for 20 seconds and then switches to 8%. I think I remember you have Neo and it should be faster than most but I have never looked at the adjustment speed of slope mode.
Torque is semi-independent of watts. Torque is the dangerous part not the watts. The watts is just dangerous for your mind You can ask ChatGPT to calculate torque. The problem is because it is more instantaneous, you have little control over the actual torque applied to your knees. Frequently as you see with weight lifting is that you can over do it many times and finally, bam… you have a problem. I believe if you take it smart though, I do believe indoors you can control the risk factor.
I also have gym outside in the cold and no way am I going out there to use it. I started going to the gym this winter and that has been the best thing. I love it. I do believe heavy kettlebell swings can really provide a lot of value and take up very little room. I prefer squats but these can be a great indoor winter activity.
You can ask ChatGTP/Gemini to calculate torque for you based on crank arm length, RPM and watts. And compare the amount of torque you are getting with these vs HIIT or something else. You might find their are spikes of 3-5X or something. You can also compare it to squat torque. Meters weight moved, time it took to lift it and the weight including most of your body weight… Realize you could have this peak small torque that starts at very low RPM in these starts, if you start them while already moving at decent RPM the risk is likely severely reduced.
Personally I would not be afraid of doing them but I would try to ease into them for a period of a month or so before really hitting it hard. I tend to take risks but I do it safely
I have the Elite Suito. But I do also believe the delay comes from the trainer, not the app. Next session I will try with ERG mode. When I do HIIT intervals, I believe the first 2 seconds are also some sort of a ramp up. Which in that scenario is welcome when you get to block 3
When you use weights, you also have to carefully select the weight of course. The weight here is replaced by torque. I’m not that worried about that. I was more referring to the risk of the snapping chain. Which I indeed can see as a problem if you do these outdoors. On the indoor trainer I literally come to a stop and then start to pedal again. The chain remains in the same position, since I let the trainer do the resistance, not the gearing.
And finally : yes, I will ease into them. Funny side effect : when I did them yesterday (8 repetitions), this was not feeling like a challenge. I have to admit that I do feel my legs today 
Oh yes Suito is highly likely to have a delay. We have one, I could ask my tester to confirm at some point if you really want. I still think for this slope mode is going to be better but yes experiment.
Yes for sure you have to select the right weights with squats but that is much easier than controlling your cadence from 12 rpm to 10 rpm (in a start) which is a 20% increase in torque… no one would accidentally add 20% to their squat… But I am not 100% sure how you are doing these starts but if they jump rapidly to a high slope then they could have a short period of very slow RPM.
Yes, so if you are feeling sore, it means you taxed your muscles and also taxed your tendons and ligaments. Your muscles will build faster so your tendons and ligaments become a risk area and an accidental 20% increase in torque could cause issues. Again, if you are smart about it and careful, I see less problem indoors. I can do short bursts of 1200-1300w (high torque) and never broke a chain but do prematurely stretch them.
Great conversation as always
No need to look into the Suito, I can handle it !
So I did look a bit deeper into the study and while it’s not really broadly available, I found in some youtube comments that the test setup was on an indoor bike (and not in an outdoor setting like one of the youtube videos is suggesting). AND : the way the protocol works is : yes, you keep pedalling at max 20 rpm ! which makes it crazy to do outside, you could likely just fall over (at least I would).
So if you think about it : if you do 15-20 rpm, you are almost done a squat like movement on the bike. Which in my view is probably the reason they found similar training adaptations between the squat control group and the on bike group.
Now having said that, the comment on the tendons is a great one. I need to go back a lot of years here. When I was in gymnastics, we had to do a lot of weight training, but : we had to do something which was called in those days “tendon training”. The background was : if you do a lot of weight training (combined with 25 hours of gymnastics), you musles will adapt much faster than your tendons. And you will end up with an injury. Tendon training was nothing else but : low weight, more reps. Back to cycling : spinning in zone 2 is ideal tendon training ! Actually : I started cycling 3 years ago because I could no longer play tennis. Problems with both of my achilles tendons. Turns out by cycling my achilles problems are gone! not in the first 6 months, but now it’s “gone” (would come back if I would run or play tennis again).
So I’m not planning on doing these session in isolation. I’m doing them AFTER at least one hour of Z2 riding… I believe that should work…
Yes, that last part is very important. Thank you, Alex! When I start in the gym after being away for a while, I always start a few weeks using the machines. Just to make sure the range of motion is controlled and I build my power before doing compound exercises.
Since you have been a gymnast, @Sport_IT_Diederik, I’m not really worried that you make any movements that you don’t control or aren’t aware of.
But like Alex said, a small difference in your pedal stroke can create a big problem. So, controlling the range of motion and maintaining form during the exercise is critical.
Finally, I would advise you to test your chain weekly for wear and tear. Buy yourself the small tool and use it.
Seems like you are doing a great experiment.
Have fun, Coach Robert
For anybody reading the conversation and considering giving it a try : this is true in a fitness, but this is VERY true in this on bike scenario. You basically push against a massive ‘torque wall’. It’s tempting to do it in an uncontrolled way. For cycling fans : like Mauro Vansevenant is riding. Don’t do that… that will go wrong…
Yes, 15-20 is HUGE, HUGE difference and at this rpm your pedal strokes are not smooth so this could be 50% difference or more in torque… This is the difference between squatting 80kg or 120kg…
I was researching lately if tendon strength declines like muscle strength… I was thinking once you made them strong maybe they stay that way very long. It seems while lasting longer than muscular strength they get weak as well (too bad…)… But as a ex-gymnast you should be extra protected if their is any residual… Since you are not going into this blindly and have a lot of experience, I still agree it should be safe for you.
Also very curious how this goes. I am now getting interested in Olympic lifts which come with more risk as well. Never done them before but this is more explosive than traditional strength lifts. I will plan to get an online coach and start them more seriously after my May gravel ride/race… Maybe just learn and practice a technique a bit for now.
An update for those interested in “on the bike strenght training”.
I did this for 3 weeks now, 2 “sessions” per week. So it’s too early to tell a real impact, first impressions is a better way of putting it.
it’s practical. This was my number 1 demand. I don’t want to go outside 2 evenings a week, I don’t want to go outside after an indoor ride. I can do a session by adding 20 minutes to a regular indoor ride. I don’t need to come of the bike even (thanks to the great feature in Trainerday to just merge a workout). From that point of view, it hits all the marks.
it’s not technically straight forward. Talking about the IT part of things. The slope mode didn’t really work for me. Still will re-evaluate that. I made an ERG workout instead. There’s a couple of challenges with it. First one being, you are passing on power, which is the combination of torque and cadence. For this exercise to work, you need a very low cadence. Which leads to the practical challenge with trainer lag. The trainer is not good at changing from 80W at 80RPM to 250W at 20RPM…
as a result : it’s not that straight forward as a exercise. I take a 60 seconds rest between the reps. the last 5 seconds I need to slow down, almost come to a stop, the trainer can then pickup and put the resistance up. At the end of the interval, to get back to 80W, you need to accelerate (which in itself is an interesting additional effort).
it’s probably not without risk for injury. Like pointed out by Alex & Robert, there’s a risk for injury. I’m not talking about the chain snapping . pushing 250W (which is what I have put in), from almost 0 RPM, is an interesting movement. You have to concentrate hard on keeping you core stable, only using your legs and using your legs in the correct movement. The original idea came from an outdoors setup on a gradient. Honestly : I think that is even more risky.
So taking all of that, does it work? I do see an improvement in my HIIT intervals. But I’m not doing a scientific experiment. Meaning : maybe the improvement is because of my “normal cycling training”. I don’t have any pain or injury challenges. So for now I’m taking it as : it doesn’t harm, it’s easy to do, so I continue doing it. The real outcome might become clear later. Or not
What a great review. Thank you so much for that.
So, this is me thinking out loud with some general considerations.
A key point in this discussion is that you can’t “trade” gym strength training for bike strength training. They have different purposes.
Cycling is a very monotonous movement that targets very specific muscles. The result is an unbalanced body.
The back of the body is stretched and most muscles in the posterior (back) chain are less active than the anterior (front) muscles.
As a result, a lot of cyclists suffer from weak hamstrings, lower back problems, shoulder pain, etc.
A very important part of training is to even that balance through body weight or weight training.
Another aspect is to counter the effect of osteoporosis due to the dynamic resistance on the bike.
As a coach, these are the main reasons to incorporate weight training in a cycling training schedule.
Next, as you correctly pointed out, it is very hard to go from 0 to 250 Watts and maintain a correct movement pattern. Like in the gym, some people are good at controlling and adapting their movement pattern, some people are not and need feedback from an observer, and some people haven’t got a clue even if they would get feedback.
Finally, like in the gym, a workout like this would take a schedule where you gradually build power. So start slow.
A tip, that would enhance your personal experience, would be to start with one or two sets at 60% to warm the body and get a focus for the right technique.
Again, thank you for sharing. This is great information. It raises so many questions in my head, and in times like this I just wish I had a container of cyclist that I can open to do more research.
Please keep exploring, I’m really curious about what your findings will be in a few weeks.
Have fun, Coach Robert
Great remarks.
I would certainly NOT recommend this approach for “real” cyclists. They need to go to the gym. No doubt about that.
My point of view is very different : I’m a time crunched 50+ cyclist with some specific cycling goals in the season. My aim is to cycle/train on average 8 hours per week over a period of a year. In winter time, this is mainly indoors. In the week, it’s dark by the time I’m ready for it (and I’m not going out in the dark, way to dangerous). And in the weekends, well, the weather we had here in Belgium in the last months… As soon as the days get longer and the weather gets a bit better, there’s a shift to outdoors. Which mainly results in more hours per week on the bike. My thinking is/was : what can I add to this, which is practically possible and might results in “my 50+ version of marginal gains”. This is typically one of those where it’s not a black or white picture. I’m not even assuming this would be a “100% replacement” for gym training. But it might give me 20W extra on the Mont Ventoux in september
Ah Belgium, I’m right next to you in the Netherlands. 
Just a few more weeks and we will be on summer-time. 
Let´s hope it will be dry with mild temp.
This morning, temperatures went down and it was raining. It was very cold. Sunday, I was riding in shorts with short sleeves and I got home with white sweat stains in my shirt.