Steve Neal tempo training thoughts

[dthrog00]

I was giving some thought to why this training block for me resulted in burn out and think I’ve learned some stuff since then:

1. I had a crappy FTP estimate. What I thought was low-to-mid tempo or moderate sweep spot was actually harder. I think I was off about 6% which is enough for everything to be harder than it was supposed to be.
2. The 83% HR governor is supposed to be… an upper limit. Just because you are lower than the governor doesn’t mean the workouts need to be harder. The real intention of the governor was to stop riders from going too hard.
3. I was doing twice weekly hard-ish outdoor rides a week to go with the 2 indoor rides where tempo that was really sweet spot/sweet spot that was really threshold rides a week and digging a hole. When I started doing the “sweet spot” rides is when the wheels fell off.

I can’t say the block didn’t work because I was performing quite well then.

I would still say the tempo style rides are fun and in my estimation probably the most fun way to train.

I think the smarter way to do this is:

1. Use a long form FTP test of 40-45 minute test to find sustainable power or just ride by RPE.
2. Make the goal fatigue resistance. Use a tempo PROGRESSION and not constant power to keep it from getting boring and intensity manageable. Something like 80%-84%-88% progressions with TiZ building from 3x9 to 3x20 twice weekly is about the range I think would make sense for a ~ 5-hr a week recreational rider, this ends up being about 20% TiZ to 40% TiZ.
3. Use HR/RPE as an effort guide. If it feels too hard then back off.

I’m thinking something like:

This ends up being more like something the infamous Ferrari would suggest before the 53x12 forum was lost, although of course he is talking to a racing audience doing outdoors training not recreational riders riding inside because of snow/cold.

Dave

[Ivegotabike]

Good points.

I think the first two points by ferrari apply to this type of training.

I think the third point is about Z2, which is a lower intensity than these low sweet spot rides.

The workouts described by Steve Neal are not easy. They are doable, but the duration (of each effort and of the sum of those efforts in the workout), makes them pretty taxing. Especially on the second day!

Building up TiZ is the key.

Personally I would stick to, or very close to 85% FTP, but not go above that. Building up from 3x9 to 3x20 at 85% is a sensible approach (imo).

[PoleDaviss4]

It’s amazing that you’ve noticed that you’re falling a little on 3–4 hours of skiing — it’s already a big step in understanding your body. The idea of 3×20 intervals at a tempo pace at a level of about 83% of the maximum heart rate is a great way to improve endurance.
If you want to support your workouts at home, you can add a little equipment to develop strength and mobility. For example, BetterMe Butter Yellow Leggings:Butter Yellow ⅞ Leggings (Color: Butter Yellow) | BetterMe Store. They are convenient for stretching, Pilates and home exercises after skiing.Such small details help to recover better, strengthen muscles and increase stability

[dthrog00]

Ivegotabike,

If you have time I was wondering if you could help me review this data and figure out if this is just right or too hard?

The goal again is to use winter training to make myself more fatigue resistant on 3-4 hour outside rides next spring. The rough concept to achieve this is to use this basic structure progressing TiZ from 3x9 to 3x20.

Base workout: (notice the 2 lines pointing to 10 minutes at 70% before/after the intervals and the recovery sections in brackets)

Intervals.icu says decoupling for the 2 arrow sections is 8.9%!

The workout is effective at exposing my fatigue resistance shortcomings. I think there’s value in being able to reproduce that. Clearly the recoveries are keeping the pressure on and I’m not seeing much HR drop.

My initial takeaway is that the workout concept is fine, but the tempo sections should maybe be a constant 83% instead of 83%-85%-87%?

If I stay in zone 2 at the same 70% for an hour workout, HR decoupling is a lot better, this is from earlier in the month.

Regards
Dave

[Ivegotabike]

Let’s take a look at it with the workout structure described by Steve, in the video at the top of this thread, in mind.

First up, reduce the power in the rest between intervals!

40% of FTP is a rest, 60% or 70% is work!

Do you have HR data for the workout? If so, was it always <83% of your HR max?

HR is used as a governor in the protocol. 83% of HRmax being the limit. The protocol is strict that you should not go above 83% HRmax.

The protocol says the work interval starts at 85% FTP and, unless the HR cap comes into play, it does not change.

Start the work interval and keep an eye on HR. As it drifts up, be ready to tap that down arrow to reduce the power so that HR does not exceed 83% of HR max.

If you have to reduce the power by 10% during the interval, end the interval and do the rest period. During the rest period, reset the power (by undoing any down arrow changes you made during the work interval).

Start the next interval and work through it as before. Fully respect the HR cap.

When you have worked through the three intervals, cool down.

A little cheat code: do the work intervals at a little less than your normal cadence. If your normal cadence is around 90rpm, aim for around 85rpm. That will buy you a bit more time at lower HRs.

There is a bit of a balancing act as you increase the length of the work intervals. Only increase the duration if you are completing all three intervals without having to cut any of them short (due to having to reduce the power by 10% to respect the HR cap).

Add a minute or two to each interval. As with all progressions, there doesn’t need to be any rush: today’s workout should only be so hard that you can properly complete the next one on the schedule.

These are not easy workouts. They are doable, but the duration (of each interval and of the sum of those intervals in the workout) makes them pretty taxing.

The protocol in the video calls for three of these workouts per week. I would say that a four to six week block of these would be more than enough to i) deliver results and ii) get you ready to do something different, even if only to avoid getting bored of them!

Come back and do the block again whenever you want, but variety in training is important.

[dthrog00]

Sure. My cycling peak HR is 191 so the max of 158 is right at the governor level.

While the thread is Steve Neal that’s not what I’m doing. I tried that before and I won’t say it doesn’t work, but it is monotonous in my opinion.

I’m basically doing a version of the Ferrari medio workouts scaled to what I’m able to do.

Thanks
Dave

[Ivegotabike]

My answer to your first question ‘if this is just right or too hard?’ is that I don’t think it is too hard.

Carefully extending the intervals in this type of workout as you capability grows and consistently doing your planned volume - that will help you towards your fatigue resistance objective.

Enjoy!

[Robert_UCL]

Hi Dave,

I love to read about all your cycling experiments.

In one of your responses I have seen that you do a low carb diet. If that is true, you are missing out on some great results. Everything that is zone 3 and up uses carbs, and lots of it.

If you want to ride fast and last for four hours in spring, my advice would be to fuel your performance.
You can still do low carb days, but for interval- and long rides I would use carbs. It will make you more powerful, faster, and you will recover better.

Have fun, Coach Robert

[dthrog00]

Thanks Robert, I appreciate your insights.

I’ve actually been “struggling” with weight a bit recently – I was previously able to stay at 69-70 kg but lately have been closer to 72 kg without much success reducing it.

I’ve been experimenting with diet and I think maybe I’ve run out of success with low to very low carb.

I’ve never had issues with low carb bonking, but I’m a lower performance athlete to begin with and typically only pushing 0.75 IF for 3 hrs.

Dave

[Ivegotabike]

I have a block of this “Fatmax” training scheduled to start in a couple of weeks.

Rather than jump straight into the block (which will be two and then three consecutive days of this type of workout), I thought I should remind myself of what to expect.

I was interested to see how the mostly low HR work I have been doing recently has set me up for some slightly higher intensity stuff.

Just as I was surprised by how significant the effect on my power at “MAF” HR has been from a couple of months of training at below that HR, I am pleasantly surprised by the outcome of this foray into “Fatmax” work.

3x25’ at 85% FTP capped (if necessary) to 83% HRmax (so 150 being the cap for me). Cadence target at 5 below my ‘normal’ (so 85 rpm for me).

If felt really good. Better than I remember from the last block of this sort of work that I did. The first interval took a bit of getting into - I do need to do more warmup before the workout.

The cadence line is a bit jagged, but I expect that will tidy up after a couple more sessions, as I get more used to that reduced rpm.

I am confident that I could have done a fourth interval in the same manner. A fifth? Doubtful.

[dthrog00]

These types of workouts can be fun in my opinion. Nice work!

Dave

[dthrog00]

I looked at my history when I was doing these before (July 2024) and I worked up to 3x20, did that twice, and called it good.

I think I had a vanity FTP then than I since modified it, that’s why it says 89% vs 85%. I also have weird zones set up in intervals.icu currently so don’t pay attention to the zone colors.

I have to say you are an amazing athlete. First, you are pushing a lot of power. Second, your HR by interval is actually going DOWN not up.

The 2 times I did this HR went up from the 1st interval to the 3rd interval by 7 to 12 BPM.

The TR guys (or former TR guys) are tough as nails. I don’t know if the TR program makes you tough as nails or if you have to be tough as nails to stick with TR programs. Chicken or egg, right?

I gave a TR plan a shot once. I did the ramp test, came out with what I thought was a high FTP number, but trust the process right? I went into the first over under work out and it crushed me. Absolutely crushed me. It turned out the workout was actually over-really overs!

I concluded I’m not tough as nails

Dave

[Alex]

Super great. I love it. I have a question. Unless you have a event date, when you clearly see something working why would you stop doing it?

[Alex]

Obviously people are built differently and a guy that is built to be a TTer might suck on a ramp test and his ramp test is a lot lower compared to his abilities compared to you/others. But as you said for sure other guys are tough as nails and can just handle pain or their ability to push through for what they believe in is unstoppable. The people that get the gains from TR to make them tough are the ones that already started out with something extra. TR is not likely to make you or I faster. Most of the long time TR users I know don’t fully follow TR plans any more. It’s too hard even for the guys that could do it in their early years.

[Ivegotabike]

I get dropped by the groups I ride with pretty often. Never first up the climbs and always outsprinted.

But I do like the training.

Before TR brought in adaptive training, the standard plans were pretty savage really.

The Low Volume variants had (imo) very hard workouts. The Medium Volume could burn out people that were used to doing the 7 hours per week on the bike, but that weren’t used to the structured stuff. High Volume sweetspot stuff was very effective, but the fatigue could catch you up some weeks later.

[Ivegotabike]

@Alex

Super great. I love it. I have a question. Unless you have a event date, when you clearly see something working why would you stop doing it?

Once doing the same thing all the time gets a bit too repetitive, then a change can be as good as a rest for me.

My MAF type training started 6 July and I am ready to mix it up a bit.

A 6 week block incorporating these Fatmax workouts will be enough. Last time I did a block like that, I was pleased with the results.

I plan to go back to the MAF type workouts again after this block for 3 months or so - all the way through to March.

[dthrog00]

@Ivegotabike

I get dropped by the groups I ride with pretty often. Never first up the climbs and always outsprinted.

Your group must be quite the talented group of cyclists. If you can do 260W on repeat that is awesome. I’m impressed anyway for what it is worth.

Dave

[Alex]

Love it. Good answer

[Ivegotabike]

It is a nice group that assembles for those rides. Mostly early retirees / flexible work. Some that were stars of the local racing scenes back in their day.

Almost 50:50 men:women. Behave well on the roads. Can do a decent through and off line. Know where the best cafes are. Good at roadside repairs / bodges. Decent banter and conversation.

A good group ride is hard to beat imo.

There are faster groups locally, mostly the younger racing groups. It would be be too big a step up for me to even get to the bottom of their level.

[Alex]

I would say following traditional periodization would be safer bet which ideally includes increasing volume and intensity up to peak performance in march/april. I also would say if you are fine hitting peak performance mid-summer then this is a good plan.