Strength Training Advice

Training and Performance Fundamentals
21

Slow to adding my 2-cents. So Coach Jack is not multi-sport. We try to handle two scenarios now. One is give someone a basic plan that should be very good. Two is give people a tool to help the create what they believe is the perfect plan with minimal effort. I would say you fall into this later group. :slight_smile:

I am doing a European (Poland) gravel race in May as well… 150km… I will be very slow though :slight_smile:

So I don’t think any system today could give you good advice to what you are trying to do. To me this sounds to me like you want it all :slight_smile: I want to do max strength training and max cycling and result in max performance… For a few people this approach can work but for most people (especially for us that are 50+) they will likely have problems. If you want to take this approach you need some advanced help either via yourself or via a coach (not via any tools that are available today). It’s a real struggle to be subjective about our selves with goals like this, but it can be done.

One thing that becomes ultra critical for goals and effort levels like yours is some form of periodization and mostly that does not mean going for medium hard to very hard seasonally (for most)… If you are doing sustained sweet spot that is not easy, that is at least medium hard.

So based on the information you provided like I say is you really need more detailed help. We could go deep into an evaluation here but still I think I could not spend enough time on this to give you a quality enough of an answer. But I can respond at a more basic level. At this point in the season it would be optimal if you were feeling well rested from a base period and ready for some hard work, and maybe you are.

22

@Alex and @Robert_UCL , thank you for your considerate and useful feedback!

What I was primarily asking for/about from TD was if there was a decent option to get a “standard” cycling training plan from Coach Jack wit a bit more info/restriction.
My Example would be: “Coach, please create a cycling plan for Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday.” Plus Uh, ahh, keep in mind that I do other hard workouts on Thursday and Saturday.

Would that be possible?
I take it: probably not right now. But maybe this could be done. The coach could even ask me “How hard do you train these sessions you keep hidden from me?” and I’d specify this some way – corresponding (estimated) TSS, RPE & duration, etc.

In more detail: @Alex , yes, I understand that I fall into your second scenario :wink: And I am happy to do this myself, for most of my time on the bike (only a few years) I have trained myself. But I also have a (pretty successful, national level) history in training kids and teenagers, albeit in a very different sports – nevertheless, I did learn being a trainer and coach formally and intensely.
As you pointed out, being objective about yourself, your own performance and shortcomings, is even harder, though. Therefore, I am continuously looking for ways to support me in my self-coaching in the best possible ways. Clearly category 2:-) but the better-suited Coach Jack’s plan is the more objective I get my real plan.

In fact, one reason for coming to TD was/is that it seems to provide these facilities to change/create my own plan;-)

@Robert_UCL, I looked into Joe Friel’s weight-litfing TSS blogs and such – is this what you were thinking of? – but that does not really serve my problem here. Nevertheless, it makes the important point that fatigue and fitness contributions are very different for cross-sports accounting. intervals.icu provides good features here and for me I set this up such that my gym-sessions have a TRIMP-based load which fully accounts for cycling-fatigue and (only, but still) 25 % of which account even to cycling fitness. In the short term most of this fitness-contribution, I assume, comes from the warmup/cooldown times on the stepper… The actual strength effects will not show up in ATL, CTL, etc. – but in variation/increase of FTP:-)

23

Yes I am not a big believer in strength TSS and even endurance TSS is very broad stroke and still needs a lot of human intervention when running on the edge. If you are - 30 TSB for 2 weeks and your knee is starting to hurt you can take a guess as to why. But at the more granular level it’s not so accurate and different people can handle different levels of -TSB in different sports and at different times.

While we could get CJ to add in strength training suggestions, attempting to add a persons existing strength training into a cycling plan is incredibly difficult and is so incredibly individual that it is hard to do a good job of that. Garmin attempts to and in my opinion fails miserably. Many platforms just pretend to give good recommendations that sound good but are really not optimal that I don’t want to be another one of those platforms. I am always hunting for how we could provide great suggestions and feedback.

So I am also deep into weight lifting (more theory than practice :slight_smile: , although very motivated at the the gym ATM)… More is getting published these days in the obscure strength world that overlaps the endurance world but they tend to call this “work capacity” a term also used in endurance sports, Anaerobic Work Capacity (AWC or W’)…

I like the approach the strength world is bringing to these concepts. This holds true for both strength and endurance which is if we want to increase our performance the best way to do this is increase our work capacity. This is the point you are at. How can you maximize your work capacity. There is a trend to “breaking the rules” in the strength world, with stuff like “do we really need days off?” Like myself if you have pushed too far at times you know you don’t want to repeat that if possible. But if you can correctly increase your work capacity without digging too deep of hole you can become a monster.

So see how many words I can write without answering your questions at all? :slight_smile:

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24

A simple example is doing 85% of 1RM in squats, the difference of sets of 3 reps vs 4 could have a big impact in cycling training and recovery for some individuals and less so for others.

I should also say I created the second HRV app in the App Store 10 years ago and have a bit of knowledge/experience there as well.

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25

Alex,

Can you describe what training you are doing to prepare for your gravel race?

Regards
Dave

26

As we are already off-topic: What CJ-target would one use for such a race?
For my UCI gravel races/etc. I was wondering if I should use the 2–4 h vs. the 1 d targets, too. I set for the former for now, as it will be at ~4 h – hopefully;-)

27

You mean other than getting out of bed in the morning? Hmm… :slight_smile:

I never follow my own advice that I give here… Well the principals I do but the details are different.

Like many people here, my situation is complex. But it’s a long story that started with my wife having preemie twins when I was an aspiring ultra-runner at 48. That reality was crushed but my kids are so incredibly fun that I would not trade them for anything. We spent the first 3 years trying to survive… Since then I mostly have done just enough to feel in a little bit of shape but never to that level of being super motivated/fit.

Anyway fast forward to now (at 58) and I have to do everything I can to try to stay consistent so I do exactly what I feel like just to drive inspiration/fun/motivation. I care much more about health than cycling performance, so the race is more just a goal to help drive motivation (and it’s fun).

Now that that my kids are 10, TrainerDay is going well, I don’t have another job… My life seems to be coming together and I finally got totally motivated for the first time in last 10 years towards the end of the summer and built up to a 100km ride after like 8 weeks (a bit on the steep volume increase side)… Then as the weather got worse, I struggled, but I did a little something each week even as winter approached.

I have a nice (but cold) gym at home, but I just joined a warm gym again and seriously excited about it.

So just like the advice I was alluding to above, I am 100% focused on improving my work capacity as I find when you get older it’s very easy
to dig yourself into a hole. It’s funny as the last 2 summers I have dug like 500 wheel barrows of dirt for my kids pump track for biking and other projects. 4-6 hours a day of digging seemed to do wonders for my work capacity but my inconsistencies in volume and forms of training don’t lead to being in great shape.

So there is not much literature or any studies related to this but I believe strength training can build work capacity faster than endurance sports but especially when combined with zone 2 endurance work.

Right now I am trying to build work capacity via the idea of “squat everyday.” I also prefer building my running shape and so I am running at the gym. So if I could run 6 days a week, squat 6 days a week and feel that I am getting adequate recovery I will then transition to more cycling focus. I am riding just a bit each each week now but I feel in my case it’s more about this work capacity which will drive my ability to maximize my cycling performance when my body is ready. Like many here outdoor cycling is way more fun for me than indoor :slight_smile: So I prefer shorter indoor cycling and then put more effort into outdoor.

There is a great book called squat every day (6-days a week…) where the guy discuss a lot of this work capacity concept, but I have other books and experts as well. So I feel the same if my work capacity is high enough when spring comes, cycling “every day” will bring the fastest best results.

I would call the phase I am in base training, but it’s a very non-traditional base for a cyclist. It would be more called an extended transition period.

I frequently repeat, the actual plan is the icing on the cake and it’s really proper volume and recovery (and ultimately work capacity) that is the main component of performance. Many people say the fastest guys they know are bike messengers. I will do some interval training as I feel I have a more solid base but I like to wait until the last minute to plan that type of stuff rather than create a schedule early.

Not the answer you were looking for :slight_smile:

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28

I see you gave up on me giving you a useful answer :slight_smile: Your choice/plan sounds fine.

Again with your complex situation what is best for you is a matter of balancing all this stuff but I do think for people doing a lot of strength training CJ will produce a better plan than any other platform as our intensity tends to be lower which balances your strength training better. What will be important is the daily decisions you make on how to adjust your plan based on feel. Follow the plan but then make small adjustments focusing more on when you can safely build more volume into it. The intervals will naturally build themselves and get harder and harder and at some point they may need adjustment as well but more likely just getting your volume right. Getting in the hot tub… sleeping more. This will be the biggest on the fly adjustments that will make the biggest difference.

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29

I don’t think there is a right / wrong or what I’m looking for, for me it was curiosity.

Thank you for your feedback.

Dave

30

Yes, yes, we all love learning and hearing different stories of what works for people can feed that information that helps us. So I was joking a little :slight_smile:

So I talked to Jonathan Pope here. In my opinion he is one of the experts in the world on training but from a very unique perspective.

They train people to get into Navy Seals and other elite forces. These are 18 year old kids that are already extreme athletes. Still their is only like a 10% chance of getting in but if you pass his course it’s more like a 70% chance of getting in. In talking with Jonathan, what did he say? He said that if these guys are unwilling to do zone 2, he just tells them to pack their bags and leave because they are not going to make it. So this might sound like a diversion from the discussion of strength but he is a very strength focused coach again promoting zone 2 and also introduces this idea of building work capacity.

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I also should say even though my program or goals sounds a bit crazy, they are not as crazy as they sound when you get into it. Meaning 6 days a week of squats. But I do a few warmup sets and only one work set of 3-4 reps each day and I generally only do 3 exercises a day so it’s about a total of 15-20 minutes of strength work which turns into more like 5 days a week on average.

Also after many years of HRV testing and CTL/TSB testing am pretty in tune with how I feel and judge things on feel. I could lie to myself and get confused as well but I feel pretty safe. For me even how well I sleep can be an early indicator.

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32

I should also say, what we teach with TrainerDay and Coach Jack are more tried and true safe training principals that is likely to be good to great for most people.

What I do for myself is stuff that is tends to be more exploratory, pushing the boundaries for learning purposes. Most of what I try are stuff that some experts or some science gives some validity towards. I feel I am very good at moderating intensity to sustainable levels and this let’s me try stuff outside the box. I could almost say this stems from intensity laziness :slight_smile: or just fear of hurting myself.

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33

3 exercises as in squats, lunges, and thrusts with 3 rounds each. plus warmup… take me significantly longer than 15–20 min:-)

Anyway, what weights do you use for the work set. Obviously. 3-4 reps at 90 % 1RM are still pretty tough… Although I do believe that you could do some moderate-intensity squats/deadlifts/etc. (one of them, not all) every morning and then live a normal life otherwise;-)

34

I have been in barely a maintenance mode for about 6 months in weight training, just doing kettle bell swings and some push ups periodically so I am not strong at all, and just getting back into it.

Deep low bar squat is my staple which is 85% of my 1RM (80kg fyi…) as I said I am only doing a single work set and I could always squeeze one more out.

Also, just doing a single work set of

  1. bench
  2. lat pull down or pull-ups negatives only… (taking it slowly to get back to full pull-ups)
  3. bent over row
  4. Occasionally some random accessory exercise but not much of this.

As I mentioned, I am focused on this work capacity increase which is all about trying to inspire your body to recover faster, so doing as many days per week as I can but starting at a sustainable level. Like you suggested I will likely alternate higher volume/harder days when this starts feeling comfortable/easy… feels like soon.

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35

That (low bar squats) is almost like cheating;-)

I am doing high-bar (fairly deep, limited by injured-knee mobility) squats to build up quads, which are missing the most in the injured leg. Yesterday 3 x 6 @ 60 kg plus broad jumps in between…
Back chain through hip thrusts and Rumanian dead lifts. Plus some bench press, more small jumps and leg extension/leg press at the end that‘s effectively a 80+ min session (incl. warmup and cooldown). Today HIIT A #1… tomorrow gym (different similar program), Sunday long right – CJ, rest/recovery day on Monday will be necessary;-)

36

If you mean cheating because you can lift more than I agree. :slight_smile:

But while I don’t like some of RIpetoe’s communication strategies, I do believe the fundamentals he teaches are some of the best for starting strength (generally a squat less than 1.5x your body weight). And you are doing something very specific to your goals and needs which always should be prioritized.

Rippetoe states the single best strength exercise is the low bar squat, especially for the beginner. I fully agree with this and from a health and safety perspective people need to strengthen their posterior chain more than their quads. That’s not to say that high bar and dead lifts are not more beneficial in many cases but in my case I am trying to minimize my time and train full body daily so this allows less stress with more health focused results. I am more likely to switch to high bar later down the road and likely sooner add dead lifts like you.

Most of my life I spent being afraid of squats and deadlifts, what a waste… I got to a 400kg 45deg leg press 10X with 4 second negatives in my 30s yet was affraid of squats… And I had a lot of muscle imbalances and related pains… I had a good coach but I was too busy telling him squats were too dangerous to listen to him :slight_smile:

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37

Yes („almost“). And I fully agree:-)
Good luck and success with your endeavors – in fact I would be very interested to learn how the work-capacity increase works out, mostly really in the cycling performance☝🏼

38

Yeah this all becomes grey area but what we do know is pros and elites tend to have very high work capacities, meaning regular people can’t ride 25+ hours a week and include hard intervals in that and continue to improve. So the question you are asking is does work capacity = work capacity… Meaning if I increase my strength work capacity does it increase my cycling or aerobic work capacity. It would seem like it helps but it may not or maybe not very much. The problem is I am not consistent enough to even do an n=1 study on this :slight_smile: What I am mostly interested in is getting stronger, maximizing health and doing whatever sounds fun at the moment and spending less time worrying about injury and recovery…

So regarding cycling performance, I think for most people it is very important to periodize strength training and going to a minimalist maintenance period starting soon in the season and ending in late summer. It could be a gradual tail that tapers off to the spring and starts tapering back in mid-summer. But each person is unique. So @Tayno_25 is seriously strong (I have seen pictures) and has a 400w FTP but he also seems to have a very unique physiology that he can punish himself non-stop with out any problems. @Tayno_25 do you do seasonal periodization of strength training? I know Coach Robert does and believes it’s important. It’s very standard advice for maximum cycling performance to have seasonal strength periodization.

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39

This is a nice discussion. I see a lot of very important issues addressed.

Pro’s do have a higher work capacity than most of us. That is why they are pro’s. Most pro’s also love what they do. There is nothing more important to them. That is how they can keep doing it for years.
Even if we have the same work capacity, we still have jobs we need to do. That is also work capacity. It takes time and energy that you can’t use for cycling.

You might argue that you would train harder in less hours, but that is not the same.

Another very important point that Alex makes is that he is pacing himself in building his strength. That is the best thing you can do for yourself.

Although I have seen a shift over the last 10 years from cyclists preparing in three months for the season to starting to understand the importance of training the whole, I still see a lot of cyclists taking on ridiculous training routines.

That’s why I’m not a big fan of FTP builder programs. Most of them are a scam, in my opinion. Every (good) program will build your FTP. And FTP is only FTP. Meaning it is a good tool to measure your performance, but it has its limitations. Often of times, it is just a name to keep cyclists motivated to train too hard for a couple of weeks. Sure the result is great, but it is not sustainable in the long run. So next year, you’ll be at the same point.

Taking it slow and using periodization to build your performance over a longer time, as Alex does, keeps you motivated and brings you a lot further.

It is like the Olympians do. They set a goal for 2028. And they work for years towards that moment.

It will also force you to look at different training methods. For the next three months, you the FTP builder program might be/seem like the only option, but if you are going to plan the entire year, you will see that a different approach is needed.

Now, I don’t expect you (if you read this post) to set goals for 2028, but I can promise you that if you dare to look further than this season’s performance, you can grow beyond where you’re at right now.

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40

Excellent message. I agree 110%. My goal is to become an olympian at 80 years old :slight_smile: