has a 400w FTP but he also seems to have a very unique physiology that he can punish himself non-stop with out any problems
Unfortunately I believe I hit the breaking point in mid-December. When adding Vo2 intervals, it started feeling impossible to turn the pedals, even on my regular 2 hr endurance rides. In the past 4 weeks, I’ve been out at least 4 times with illness. My most recent FTP test put me back to 365
My family and I are going on an 8-day cruise tomorrow, and I think it will be a much needed reset for me. Hopefully when I come back I can rebuild for the spring races I have coming up.
Anyways as far as strength training, yes I do seasonal. In the offseason I will do probably what you consider “heavier” sets. Two days a week, one focused on squat style movements the other focused on deadlift. Then when I get to race season or starting to build up to it, I dial it back to really just one maintenance day. Otherwise the intensity just kills me, due to how hard I usually go on the bike.
Oh sorry to hear, nice to know you are human but not so nice to experience this. I have been through that myself but my breaking point is much lower. Thanks for confirmation, have a great cruise, sounds wonderful
Well, goals are obviously changing targets, too;-) For 2025 I set myself the same goals as (I would have done) for 2023… I am not sure I will manage in 2025:-o But then I really want to do so in 2026 – moving “up” one age category and also, in prep winter, not coming back from 2 years of injury but hopefully from a regular season … thus generally stronger;-)
But in 2026 my target race would be at the other end of the world and I would not travel there:-o
It’s hard to put the long-term perspective first, but it is clearly there.
This is a great thread. I was wondering if anyone is familiar with “Maximum Overload” and Jacques Devore. Or more recently I saw Cam Nichols and the Road Cycling Academy do a series of YT videos on resistance training for cyclists.
Prior to the RCA videos I was really trashing my legs with heavy Squats, Hex Bar Deadlifts, Walking Lunges and very slow Wall/Hack Squats (10 count up and 10 down). A week later I was ready for another leg day. (I shoot for 2 days/wk in the gym). This was having way to much impact on my cycling that when I came across the RCA videos, it just made sense.
Basic idea is shoot for a minimum of 16-30 reps total across all exercises (Squat and Dead lift for example). You can do more of course but make sure it’s not cutting into your ability to recover. Pick a weight that is 80% of 1RM
Since really no one does 1RM (especially us clumsy cyclists who can only move in 1 plane) they describe a weight you can do 8 times to failure, but only do 4-5 reps. So you don’t need to go to failure, therefore you can more easily recover and hit your next workouts on the bike. Based on the quoted research there is little benefit to going to failure, but doing so greatly increases recovery.
Based on this info I’ve been doing the following;
3sets of 5 reps with 3 minutes rest between sets
Squats
Deadlifts
Walking lunges
Hack Squats
This gives me 60 reps but the walking lunges aren’t really that heavy so more like 45 reps and another exercise to round things out.
I wasn’t getting the “Pump” i liked to feel from this workout, but it did just what they said it does, and did not impact my cycling and yet still was an effective resistance training workout that I could feel made a difference on the bike.
I also do upper body 2x/week and Ab Ripper X 3x/week.
Gym days are typically Tues and Friday with Core being Tues/Thurs/Sat Yes that means I bike and gym on the same day but the bike rides are usually Zone 2 days. Ideally the gym comes after the bike but that’s not always the case.
Would be nice to get some other’s pov on this type of training.
I agree 100% with your plan. Volume and going to failure are the problem not how heavy it is. Just leave 1 or 2 reps in reserve (RIR) do about 3-5 reps and 1 or 2 hard work sets to really hold on to current strength. Minimize exercises to the main lifts only. Start with minimum but you can adjust a little based on preferences and how you feel.
Build strength in the winter by increasing volume and then cut back volume to maintenance in the main cycling season. I have not seen those videos, I don’t believe, but sounds perfect to me.
I should say you can get 90% of the benefit only doing squats and deadlifts from my perspective as they really can hit all the muscles, so the additional lunges and hack squats are likely overkill in primary cycling season but in most cases this is an “It depends”. So when I said what you are suggesting is perfect. I think the concept of reducing the number of sets is perfect.
I think unless someone is a beginner, then trying to improve cycling performance and weight performance at the same time is not optimum and you should chose one or the other to focus on. If it is cycling in the spring/summer, then try reducing sets and number of exercises even more and see if you lose any strength. As an example, if you were squatting 100kg 5 times and you switched to 1 work set, 2 times per week of squats, I bet you would keep doing 100kg and not lose any strength. It’s pretty easy to test That gives you tons of energy for the bike and no loss in strength. But if it drives you crazy, to be safe you could do 1 more set, or a hybrid approach is some workouts do 2 work sets and some do 1. The key is just to make sure the single work set is very high quality but should not be to failure. Anyway overall I still agree with your approach and find what works for you.
Great work on exploring threads and other ideas on weightlifting. I’m partially on Alex’s side. I agree that there is no point in creating a leg day routine when you are a cyclist.
I think it is a mistake many cyclists are making. Going to the gym and doing more of the same. So long (20+ minutes) sessions on the stationary bike, spinning class, or leg day.
As a cyclist, you are training your legs every workout already. This is a chance to train all the muscles that are not, or very limited, targeted on the bike. So one or two exercises are enough.
Squat and deadlift is fine, but lunges are a great exercise too. And, man… did you really say that walking lunges aren’t really that heavy??? There goes my self-esteem.
I can squat all day, but I lunges drain me with every step I take.
Training to failure comes from bodybuilding and powerlifters. The thing is…this is what they do. They just want to pump those muscles.
That is not our thing. Our thing is to keep pedaling as long as we can. We don’t need that much pump. We want to expand our pedaling unless you are a track sprinter.
And making hours is more important than being sore and drained for three days. As you said, you are doing double days. To do so, you must adjust the load of your training.
This is extra training, so we shouldn’t treat it like it is the main goal, like most fitness athletes.
Also I am not saying their is anything wrong with lunges, there is just a huge amount of overlap with lunges and squats + deadlifts that the additional gains are extremely incremental especially during a maintenance phase but come with a lot of additional stress.
I don’t think anyone knows more about getting strong than power lifters and so they call squat, dead lift, bench the main lifts and everything else is axillary or extra… The main reason to do the auxiliaries is to pull yourself out of a plateau.
Obviously the needs and demands of a cyclist or functional fitness athlete are different than a power lifter but the core fundamentals remain the same in that the main lifts will really target all your muscles and if you are in a maintainence phase doing less is more.
So I don’t know enough about lunges to know if they make sense to do instead of squats for maintenance for a cyclist. My main point is I still think he is doing more than required for leg strength during prime cycling season (starting soon) if cycling performance is the main goal.
I could ask Andrea what he thinks as well regarding squats vs lunges for a cyclist during maintenance. I am sure he has a different perspective
Just my 2 cents…
While the discussion is interesting, it will probably be very confusing for those with less knowledge on the subject.
Strength training is a general term for multiple disciplines with different targets. Each combination of weight/reps/rest is aimed at a certain outcome. So you better make sure you’re doing the correct combination to realize the gains you’re after.
Max strength - high weight - low reps - ample recovery between sets
Muscle Endurance (NOT cardio!) - low(er) weight - high reps and even sets - short recovery
Power development - similar to hypertrophy but with focus on speed of execution of the contraction phase (power = torque * speed)
As a cyclist, Hypertrophy is usually unwanted because it adds to much bulk weight with limited performance gains.
Muscle endurance and power development are better done on the bike as ‘big ring rides’, SFR, accelerations, sprints.
Max strength is in my opinion the one that you need to address of the bike. Improving max strength will improve all the others if you train them in the specific cycling situations.
Mobility and core work as a warm-up before Max strength and if you are, like me, tiny and small, some more attention for upper body with full body exercise. (I look ridiculous in my swimming shorts with a skinny upper body on top of well outlined legs…). But make sure to learn correct technique with lower weight first, so you limit injury risk.
Agreed, max strength as a cyclist is what we are after. No need to build mass. Some will be inevitable but limiting it is important.
I gather from reading a number of posts that a number of the client base here are 40s, 50s, 60s. Along those lines however we would all do well for some crossover in building muscle for the longevity benefits. So I think it depends individually a person’s goals.
For my legs I’m pretty much focused on the cycling performance benefits. For the upper body, I’m waffling. I don’t want too much hypertrophy but also realize I’m not getting any younger and the window to really build muscle is closing fast on me.
However, none of us is likely to accidentally stumble into massive hypertrophy gains unless you somehow find yourself in the gym 6-8 hours/week. So for the average cycling athlete around here, I don’t think 2-3 sessions per week of 30-60 minutes is going to be a concern.
Sure, but you want the type of muscle that gives you more force and not necessarily the type that gives more volume…
All 4 training methods will build muscle mass, but not the same fiber type.
Sounds like you are reading/listening to Attia This is an interesting question. Meaning Attia and some make it sound like mass itself has large health benefits.
My guess is their is no clear science if it is the strength that is important or the mass. My believe is more like @MedTechCD that it is more about the strength then the mass. You can have incredible strength without the mass (extreme muscle recruitment), although in most case you will gain some mass as you gain strength but just that strength should be the goal and not mass itself. Let’s show an extreme case below to illustrate this.
My guess below is even though the second guy is both stronger and has more muscle mass than the first guy. 1,000 vs 600lbs deadlifts (both are world class power lifters). The first guy (Anatoly) is likely healthier. Obviously second guy is fat too which usually comes as a side affect of attempting or accomplishing adding a lot of muscle mass.
I realize we are in a different world then these guys but the basic principals still apply. It’s hard or close to impossible to gain a lot of mass without over eating. Which lends itself to focusing on training for strength not hypertrophy (mass). This is my belief right now for just about everyone. Unless for the aesthetic reasons of have having more muscle mass.
Training for strength has a very specific protocol that is different than training for mass is the important part of this discussion. The experts I read/trust would argue it’s more import to start with strength anyway because once you are strong gaining muscle mass comes faster.
I’m not really an Attia guy., however trying to keep this simple, the elderly who can’t get around because they lost their muscular strength are frail.
The goal is to not be frail. Do what you can to keep what muscle mass you have. If you can add muscle mass even better. What kind of muscle mass you add is really getting into the weeds in my opinion.
Just don’t be the frail elderly person who can’t get out of their chair!
Anatoly is a different class, a rare exception probably. Can´t imagine that lots of lifters will do what he´s doing at his body weight. But he does force the others to rethink what they´re doing.
Yes, yes, again this is about strength. You need the strength to get out of the chair not more size. The problem I am trying to highlight is most people train for size… 8-12 reps to failure and do a million different exercises trying to attack muscles from all angles. Becoming strong is something completely different than this.
Attia talks a lot about the importance of strength / muscle mass a lot lately and popular is why I mentioned it. I think Huberman does too. Both of those guys are pretty big…
