Target vs Watt Arrow Indicator

#1

Hi Alex

I think I am about to ask a stupid question, so apologies in advance.

On the left hand side you have your target power. In the middle you have your actual power and under this you have a Green bar with an arrow. What’s your expected behaviour with the Green bar and arrow.

Let’s say my target is a 100 and my actual power is 100. I would expect the arrow to be at the right hand side at the end of the Green bar. Is that correct?

The reason I am asking, is that I am regularly cycling at the target watts and the text in actual is showing red to indicate that I’m not at the correct power. I’m really not sure what’s going on.

Thanks

#2

I designed these green bars and arrows and it is totally confusing to me. :slight_smile: We need to redesign this to keep it simpler. That is called zone mode and it is in the settings. I would just turn it off but if you really want an explination I will find the post here were I explain it. :slight_smile:

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#3

Thanks Alex. I think I found your post on this one. In case anybody is interested - see below

I think I’ll switch it off for my next ride and see how that goes.

I’ll be honest never in a million years would I have guessed it meant where you are in the zone!!!

So here is final design. I decided since this is small enough I am just going to turn it on all the time. Not have a setting to turn it off. Does anyone see a problem with this?

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#4

Yes, it was a terrible idea… I was trying to solve too many problems at one time and ended up solving none…

#5

Hi Alex

I’ve just done a ride with the feature switched off and I miss the red alert if I’m not in the correct zone. I think you’re right it just needs to be simplified. I actually think you’re 95% there.

Here’s my suggestions on how to solve this one

Using your graphic above in the left target zone box keep - Z2 or whatever zone you should be in and get rid of the blue bar. The blue bar really doesn’t add anything.

In the Watts box only keep the red text when out of the zone. The red text is currently not as accurate as it needs to be, so hopefully that can be fixed. Sometimes my watts match the target but I have red text. I would also get rid of the Green bar with the arrow indicator, it’s not really needed.

I’ve not done a ride yet that suggests cadence but maybe the red text could be used for that as well? This would need to be an option I think

Thanks

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#6

Hey Alex,

Im also struggling to understand if i’m within the correct target or not. Especially on the small screen phone, bar is not really visible. I would appreciate a redesign, like changing color of numbers or adding a background (reddish for below target and green/blue for above).
Also next interval info and the transition is not really visible. Ideally, for me it should be near the current interval timing so i would know then o start changing resistance manually (im using an indoor bike).

#7

So, we are planning to improve zones soon. I like your ideas. It could be something like below.

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#8

Here is zoomed in version

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#9

Hi Alex, that is a great looking design, will solve my problems. Thanks!

#10

Ok, I am not sure this is what it will look like but I think it will and I clearly understand the problem and think this is good for everyone, so thank you. Your request, helped my thinking on this.

#11

Alex that is really good.

I think you and your programmer my also need to think about what it means to be in the zone.

I’m seeing some bafflingly results. I can be riding at the target watts but red text is being displayed to tell my I’m not in the zone.

Is 10± watts ok or should you be closer to target. I don’t know what the answer is

Ps solomko suggestion of making the whole of the watts box red when not in the zone is good. It would certainly make being out of zone more obvious

#12

I agree with ±5% good idea but not red box :slight_smile: :slight_smile: also this fed indicator will only be in zone mode and be 3s average.

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#13

FTP may change a few percentage from day to day, but I know exactly what FTP I set in the app and the lower and upper limit watts of my zones. On the other hand zones have a range e.g. endurance 55%-75% of FTP.

If you want to train at a zone limit you may be under and over it a few watts and from mathematical point of view it matters. But from physiological point it doesn’t matter as it depends on the actual form of the day. If you really want to train in a zone you must design your training in the middle of the zone or a few percentage away from the limit e.g. at 58% or 72% (dependent on your trainer and the accuracy of your powermeter as well).

From my perspective TrainerDay indicators should rely on the simple mathematical zone model limits that means e.g. green 55%-75% and red <55% or >75%, . Other ideas are much more complicate to understand. I don’t understand what 5% (from FTP?) or 10 watts (above the upper limit?) mean.

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#14

I believe the suggestion is for a the Upper / Lower number to be a % point from the target value.

eg: Target Value = 50% of FTP (assume it’s 100w)
then the Upper / Lower limit would be

90w - 110w w/ a target of 100w (+/-10% from target)

If not mistaken, for Garmin, the default is like +/-3 watts (from a very few workout files I’ve seen)

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#15

Absolutely agree with that. If you train with zone targets, stay away from the limits. But people tend to think that chasing the upper limit of the zone is ‘better’. In fact, it’s detrimental because you end up with way too much time out of your target zone. Just target the middle of the zone and allow yourself to wander within the zone iso. keeping that same target value.

But as @app4g responded, I think the request is about workouts with a fixed target and how far you would be allowed to differ from that target. And since Power is intrinsically a metric that jumps around quite a bit, you will need about 5% tolerance, or you need to set a moving average (3s or maybe even 5s) for power readings.

Any normal training workout will not be influenced by this. There’s no need to be exactly on a Power target. You need to be around the target to train the physiological adaptation.

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#16

I am suggestion this. So you can see below my target zone is orange (VO2max) and my actual zone is Anaerobic (red), but because I am not off by more than 5% the actual Watts number of 226 is still white, or it could be grey for example.

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It’s obvious I am in the wrong zone because of the color differences but it’s not so serious that I need to change the color of the watts to red. Does this make sense.

#17

I fully, fully agree with this. The problem is someone just grabs a workout from our library and it is already at the limit. I would be better if people targets were always in the middle if they truely wanted to try to be more likely to match the physciological effect with the math theory :slight_smile: Mostly this feature is for people that are in slope mode or don’t have a smart trainer. ALso it would not turn red if you don’t turn on zone modes. If you have a smart trainer in ERG mode you should choose your zones by picking your workout.

#18

That is totally confusing to me. Partially because you are not following the colors that most people are used to (the garmin ones: Grey=Recovery, Blue=Endurance, Green=Tempo, Orange=Threshold, Red=VO2max and Purple=Anaerobic).

So here is my try at it:

  • For target, color the numbers in the physiological zone color
  • For actual watts, color the bar or background only when out of range. Use a single color (red?) no matter if it is low or high.

That way it is clear that the Target color and the watts color are giving different information. You immediately know what physiological zone you are targetting, and also, if what you’re doing is in agreement with what the workout prescribes.
if you’re doing it right, only the target color will jump out. That avoids a distracting rainbow view, only confusing you.

#19

I used these colors :slight_smile:

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These seem to be zwifts colors. I don’t know what the standard is… But yes we are saying the same thing. Target color is target zone and actual color is actual power, and Red number is watts # if too high or too low.

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#20

As I suggested the plus or minus 10 thing, I thought I better respond. I’ve got a spin bike with a power meter on it. I’m also using the coach Jack fitness cyclist plan.

I tend to watch Netflix well working out. As I’ve got to manually change gears on my bike to get to target I use the current power zone setting to make sure am hitting the target. It’s just really useful quickly seeing feedback if I’m not hitting the target. I don’t have a smart trainer that will make sure I hit the target.

Plus or minus 10 was a stab in the dark. It could be 5 or 3 or whatever makes most sense. For me I am assuming the captain Jack plan has been well thought out so I just want to ride to target.

hope that makes sense.