Training to ride a specific climb

[BlackTek]

Let’s say that at the moment I’m unable to ride a specific climb; let’s say it requires at least 10 minutes with 20% slope and I need to sustain an average power of X Watts (X depends on my weight, terrain etc).

If at the moment I can sustain X Watts for 6 minutes what is the smartest approch to train for the longer ride?
I think that I should train with interval training, by properly calibrating the lenght of the intervals, the target power and the rest.

Should I target the power I need to ride the climb or something more? (I think the former)

For the rest should I calibrate it based on my W’ balance? we’re talking about anaerobic training (>FTP)

What about the length of the intervals?

Should I start with 6 minutes, next time 5/10% increase and so on?
Or I should start with smaller intervals where the accumulated time is at least 10 minutes? (the total target length).

My understanding is that in each workout I should target the target duration of the effort, by splitting it into smaller pieces, and gradually reduce the duration of the rests (or duration of the efforts). If I reduce the rest I increase the intensity more, I guess. Therefore it’s harder.

Is there a best practice?

[Alex]

Buy bigger rear or smaller front gear

First you need to determine is it even possible with training. How much power for how long? I assume this power is greater than your FTP and in which case you have a very limited amount of anaerobic energy, which depends on your W’. But generally lets say that is about 6 minutes at 120% of FTP approximately… Once you do 6-12 weeks of this anaerobic training you will reach your peak W’, and just won’t go any more without increasing your FTP which takes a long time once you are in good cycling shape… Still even during this 6-12 weeks you might increase it from 3 minutes to 6 minutes and that’s the end of it… So the numbers matter. Once you know it should be possible then training something like you suggested sounds fine. Shorter intervals, longer rests to longer and longer intervals with shorter rests.

[BlackTek]

I already use lightest gears on steeper climbs

Looking at my power curve at the moment I can sustain 120% of my FTP for 5 minutes, but I got your point.
How can I know what is my peak W’ (the max I can obtain)? Based on intervals.icu and GoldenChetah my CP is around 265W and my W’ is around 26k. My FTP is around 260W

Could a strategy be to train at riding at lower cadence (with SFR) in order to be able to climb at a lower speed and therefore lower power? Normally it’s not easy to ride at very very low cadence on steep climbs.

[Alex]

You can change your chain ring what is your biggest ring in the back? Or smallest in the front? Probably the maximum you will achieve is 8’ @ 120% very unlikely you get past that. See below. The only solution to get beyond 6-8 minutes is increase your FTP so you are only doing 110% of FTP, or what ever you need depending how many minutes it is.

[BlackTek]

I’ve a 30t chainring on front and 10/52 back. I know that the final solution is to increase the ftp to use a lower anaerobic reserve. I was also looking at specific workouts to improve on those few special short climbs.

Is it a complete non sense to try to train lower cadence in order to be able to go slower in steep uphills?

Normally I see that my natural behaviour is to increase cadence when I’m there. Perhaps in the attempt to complete it sooner and have less pain. Lol

[Alex]

Specificity is always a good idea. I am assuming you are going low RPM in this climb, so being able to decrease RPM even more, lowers the watts you need to produce to climb it (going slower). So yes being able to sustain low RPM makes sense, increase duration of low RPM slowly over many weeks. You can do the calculations, but if you can lower your RPM by 10% (lower your watts by 10%) then you could change your climbing from 120% to 110%… so the odds of being able to do that quickly are much more likely then trying to increase your FTP quickly. So if you are 66 now being able to do 60rpm for a sustained period of time might be all you need.

I assume as you slow down then balance skills become critical. I don’t know how you work on those but GPT or youtube I am sure does.

And yes with 1X it’s hard to get small enough gears. I love 1X and will sacrifice the gearing any day but 2X would sure make the goal easer

[BlackTek]

tnx @Alex
Regarding balance skills it’s something I should continue to working on. I’ve seen that doing a lot of core workouts at gym is helping a lot in that sense.

[BlackTek]

Do you think that my CP and W’ are properly reported? I think so:

[Alex]

I don’t know how long of window intervals uses for W’ analysis but generally yes this seems reasonable. For sure you can have pro level W’ because pros tend to have less muscle mass and less fast twitch muscles so you can have even more anaerobic power than them, just not the same aerobic power or w/kg.

The thing is you likely won’t improve your W’ a whole lot from here. So FTP increases, which mostly takes years to make a substantial difference if you are lucky or do the perfect training for what your body needs.

Remember low RPM is risky as it is high torque but if you are strong and tendons and ligaments are strong from gym work for example the risk is lowered. Just monitor it closely watching for any over use symptoms.

I would not take this goal too seriously, and just have fun. Stretch goals like this can lead to injury.

[BlackTek]

tnx @Alex
that segment was one that I ride in about 18 minutes (climb with 10% average slope + a final very steep part).

I know about the stress on tendons and ligaments, but tnx for reminding me about them.

Now let’s see to increase FTP in the coming months/years

ps I try to have fun as first goal, but also try to not get down from saddle in the middle of slopes

[Alex]

I remember being a young kid like you and feeling that way… ok I have to admit I still feel that way… Lucky I just don’t have slopes like that, or at least not anything that I try.

So I have not read and don’t know a lot about this but my friend pointed out to me lower and farther back saddle uses more hamstrings/glutes. I actually try to balance these two in gravel riding (long distance mostly) so I can get soreness in either front or back of legs. It’s possible you could produce more power with your posterior chain then your quads so getting the optimum seat position might give you a little more power or you switch from seated (hamstrings) to standing (quads)… As I said I don’t know much about this. Takes more research if their is any value here, I was just surprised how easy it is to dial in muscle usage and how many road bikers all recommend high seats but I am not so convinced that is best for everyone, especially us amateurs. Not sure how this applies to MTB at all. Generally I like my seat a bit lower and farther back.

[BlackTek]

regarding high seats on steep uphills it’s not the way to go. It unbalance the weight on the back, risking to not have enough weight on the front wheel (and fall down). Normally I put my saddle 2-3 cm lower in the steep uphills (worser to express full power, but less risks to fall and better balance)

[Alex]

I don’t know about you. Most of my MTB riding was 80s and 90s but I drop my seat even more going down hill… But yes all MTB saddle heights are likely posterior chain dominant., I assume. I guess my point was more experimenting with seat height might give you some additional power. Obviously moving it back a bit gets more weight on the rear wheel. I guess I am wondering how much of the climb is in seated position.

[MedTechCD]

Couple of things considering seat height:

• Lower seat encourages higher cadence. That’s because you become more fluent at the lower point of the pedal stroke, you don’t have to ‘reach’ by toe pointing or rocking in the saddle. Unless you’re too low which causes difficulties to get over the top of the pedal stroke. But that is very rarely the case. Most people have their seat too high, point their toes and by doing this, fatigue calve muscles. The calve muscle should only be used to stabilize the foot and not to produce more leverage because it is the smallest muscle in the chain from hip to ankle. Setting cleats more to the middle of the foot also reduces calve strain. If you are a natural toe pointer, there’s nothing wrong with that if your toe pointing is very similar over the complete pedal stroke. It is the point/straighten action that fatigues the calve muscle.
• Lowering your seat by 2-3cm, also moves you further forward by quit a bit, result of the seat tube angle. On a MTB with dropper post, you can adjust your dropper/seat lower (and further forward) on the steep climbs while having it higher (and more backward) to adapt to terrain conditions elsewhere. The advantage is clear. While a climb by nature changes your position over the bottom bracket more rearwards, you can compensate and still get enough pressure on the front to avoid lifting the front wheel by pulling on the handlebar. A lower seat also facilitates going out of the saddle and alternate stand-up/seated riding.

[Robert_UCL]

Somehow I missed this post, so sorry to tune in late.

@BlackTek: Your question is a typical one. You think you have a short-term goal. As Alex pointed out, you can gain much more over the long term. Your schedule should always be focused on what you can achieve over the following years. In a long-term goal, you can make significant changes and focus on every aspect—gear, nutrition, training, and recovery.

The gearing you have is actually fine for this purpose. I use a 36-36 for climbing, and that gets me up to 16%. Steeper will make me grind. I did the Scanuppia in Italy. It is 45%, with an average of 22% over the first 4km. It is insane. The next 4 km are steep too, but normal. I did this on an mtb (an old giant cadex mcm from the ‘90 ‘s ), because there is no way you/ I can do this on a race bike with standard gearing. If I ever do this again, I would use a 29’ mtb with a 27,5’ front wheel. Seriously

From the training perspective, you could not do this anaerobically. As Alex points out, your max lies at 8 minutes, and even that is a stretch for amateurs like us. But at 20%, you have no choice. What I do for my clients is that I calculate how much power it will cost them to get up a certain gradient. I find the best climbing profile I can get and split it out for them.

At 20% you can also zig-zag to make it easier.

@MedTechCD: The main function of a dropper post is to get down safely without the saddle hindering you from positioning your body over the back wheel and moving the mtb and/ or your body sideways.

In general, an mtb seat is positioned just a little bit lower.

Keep on building that Athlete Lifestyle with consistent training, recovery and nutrition and you can have all the fun you need.

Coach Robert

PS: the Scanuppia was so steep (and my bike so old), that I got to a stand regularly. One time I couldn’t get my foot out of the pedal fast enough, lost my balance, and fell sideways. My wrist and ribs hit the fence, my bottle fell out, rolled into the ravine, and I slid down two meters over the “road” (It wasn’t really a road, more a pouring of concrete). I cut my arm, which was bleeding, broke two ribs, and still had to climb 5km’s. But I finished the ride.
There where only two kinds of vehicles on that road. 4x4’s and Fiat Panda’s. I got a whole new respect for Fiat.

And now I’ll be in front of the tv, watching Paris-Roubaix. I’d say this will be an epic one. Any predictions?

[BlackTek]

@Robert_UCL
Thank you for your feedback; I appreciate it.

And congrats for climbing Scanuppia, it’s a huge effort which takes your breath away. But it’s the kind of climbs I like

So long story short do you recommend to not trying to concentrate on those low term goals, but only on long term ones?
I like to also have short term goals to build motivation an have targets that you can touch and try to achieve, without waiting too much.

Doing lot of Z2 helps on the long terms, but it’s not hugely motivating on short term. But it’s also true that we can appreciate how it’s easier to ride while building aerobic capacity.

[Robert_UCL]

Of course you can use short term goals, but see them as they are; a stepping stone to a long term goal.

You can always do a short term goal as long as it doesn’t deviate you from the path of the long term. That is, if you want to be the best you can, and do everything it takes.

Maybe you don’t like zone 2, there are more riders who just want to go fast. That is fine too. It doesn’t take you to your best level, but maybe you are okee with that.
I get cyclists in my webinar sometimes who say to me, I understand what you are saying and I believe it is true, your offer is great too, but I don’t want to do the work. I just want to ride.

Every amateur has it’s own version af that. Yes, I measure a lot of my food, but not everything and every day. Yes, I train hard, but I don’t ride a 13000,- bike.

There are always things we are not willing to do. You need to find the things you love to do to get better, and be at peace with the things you don’t want to do.

In my humble opinion you can/ should do both: slow and long vs short and intense.

But no matter what you do: have fun