Whats next advice

[soulo_ridah]

Currently doing a base + for the month of Dec. This I have ending at the end of the month. I need to know how to setup the next few months? I have a trip planned March, that will be climbing centered. I was thinking of doing a power phase for two months and then finish with a climb phase? I would like to stick to 12-15h weeks for this work.

In addition to this, I am doing power/strength full body workouts 4days a week in the morning before work. These never interfere with my on bike workouts and always include (lower-upper-core) series of movements.

Last year I ran with CJ and the serious Italian workouts for 3 months and went up by 20W ftp, which I found to be very small gain. This year again I would like to build on that, and see what else I could and maybe hit that 300W ftp, which would put me at 4w/kg at 47 years old.

Thanx for any suggestions.

[Alex]

Most people at 4w/kg are starting to reach their limit, meaning limit based on all constraints, you don’t have enough time in the week to get as much training and recovery as you likely need to increase, or possibly other constraints (sleep… stress…), so personally I would say 20w increase is a lot for most people at 4 w/kg. Pros running around 450w FTP are often considered lucky to get a 5w increase in a season (1%). They have their own constraints which are different than yours.

The theory is while your are serious training consistently for years, most people hit their peak at about 10 years of training but as you start to get closer to that 50 years old it’s possible you could reach that peak in less than 10 years. Anyway, if you make 20w again this year I would say that is an extreme success.

I know you don’t want to hear this but usually if something works well for one season, repeating it the next season is a good idea. Many pros do the same plan each season, but at the same time everyone thinks they can improve upon what they did and might make small adjustments season after season.

Now in your case you don’t believe it was good so that makes it harder as belief is a very important aspect of training. Your plan sounds good as well. Taking a decent plan that produces good results and then trying to improve on that plan even farther takes deeper evaluation / understanding. Curious what @Robert_UCL thinks.

[Robert_UCL]

You beat me to it, as usual, Alex.

I agree with you that at 4w/kg you’ll probably be close to your limit.

From what I understand, you train 12-15 hours a week and do 4 strength sessions a week, too.

Since you are talking about a trip, I assume you are going to spend multiple days cycling in the mountains.

Like Alex said, the pro’s are doing minor adjustments each season. I think dropping two strength sessions after dec and exchanging these sessions for more time on the bike will bring you 2 things:

1. Less muscle mass. This might sound bad, but you will have to drag everything up that mountain.
2. better endurance, which will help you to drag those kilo’s up the mountain.

I’m a big believer in strength training, but sometimes you have to make choices. My FPT never got a never got above 300, until I dropped the 5 times a week weight training sessions.

Now my endurance is way better and weight is better too. I’m a happier guy in the mountains.

I would stick to the Serious Italian. That’s what brought you the results last year. Lay your foundation and switch to the bike more often. That will get you further.

Have fun, Coach Robert

[soulo_ridah]

Thank you both for the input. I know there is a limit, especially at my age, but I still want to know what is possible when ones puts in the work
So you are suggesting that instead of doing a power and then climb specific blocks, I simply use the “serious Italian” again and have it end or have the recovery week right before my trip?
In the new year I will for sure change the gym sessions, but I a firm believer that strength training adds a lot to a cyclist performance on the bike and off the bike. For sure the core work helps with the long days in the saddle, upper body strength helps us maintain the aero position and lower body work just adds power. As long as this does not interfere with the on the bike workouts, why stop or slow it down? Its not like cyclist is going to put on shit ton on muscle, the endurance work will not allow for that at all.

[Alex]

Yes, I would do serious Italian again and in reality because you increased 20w last season this would be an indicator you still have room to grow, so I don’t believe age is a limiter here. The biggest limiter you have is your ability to recover but you can compensate for that by taking recovery very seriously and limiting stuff that reduces your ability to increase from your bike workouts. Robert and I are both big fans of strength workouts but just realize too much of it combined with a lot of cycling and aging you run up against the ability to recovery as fast as you need to.

So strength training can be great for cycling performance but it should be periodized in reverse to your cycling training. Big heavy lifting in the winter and easing into maintenance lifting during peak biking season.

I would disagree with Robert on muscle mass loss being a benefit or even likely for much of it to happen… Meaning sure it could make some minor performance help but not worth it. I would focus more on the recovery aspect. So each person has an optimum maximum number of hours they can recover from in a week. 20 year old pros that can be 20-30 hours a week and most do minimal weight training or just some maintenance during peak cycling season. They also sleep 10+ hours a day. So what happens when you go past your optimum levels of training that you can recover from is you don’t progress as fast as you would with optimum recovery. So you run a much bigger risk with lots of strength training. We are talking very generically here so you might be an exception. Exceptions happen all over the place, but if you don’t increase then there is a good chance that your weight training could have held you back.

Almost all cyclists do better with more volume up to this maximum ability to recover “zone.” If you have the time to do 2 more hours a week, it would likely be beneficial, especially if you can cut your gym work in 1/2… Maybe just less sets for example, and/or keep farther away from failure.

I will respond more on the schedule tomorrow.

[Alex]

Yes, serious italian, big climbs and taper before your event sounds perfect to me. Again you say strength training does not affect your cycling, but this is something in most cases you would not be aware of unless you really over do it. There can be some indicators of over reaching a bit too far like waking up in the night wide awake, but if you sleep solid for 8+ hours of sleep a night that would be an indicator you are recovering well and can handle it. The only true test is at the end, meaning if you continue to increase your FTP this season then their is a reasonable chance it was not too much.

Again adding a couple hours of cycling and reducing your gym time/intensity/sets… would be the most traditional advice for improvement but you might love your gym routine and be willing to take the risk that it might be hindering your cycling performance, that is a 100% fine approach. I likely would do this myself when I was a young kid like you

[Alex]

So I am asking Coach Andrea about what he thinks about this fine line between great recovery and slightly not enough recovery. I will let you know. This subject is interesting to me and I have spent a lot of time but there is a nuance here I am not very well versed in. Meaning feeling great, not over trained but still inadequate recover for maximum gains.

So when you are doing something that sounds like it is right on the border of too much, you need to be extra sensitive if you are hoping for performance gains. I created the 2nd HRV app in the app store and feel when done correctly for many people can tell you things that might not be otherwise obvious. If you are doing a real base period now and feeling very rested, now might be the best time for getting a good HRV baseline and as you ramp up your intensity on the bike, just monitoring it. It might give you a actionable indicator. Doing HRV right does not take much time but it does take a focused effort.

I asked ChatGPT’s thoughts below. My understand and experienc aligns with this.

Possible Signs of Hidden Insufficient Recovery

1. Plateau in Performance

• Despite consistent training, there’s no noticeable improvement in fitness or performance.
• Workouts feel harder than expected for the same effort levels (e.g., higher RPE for steady-state efforts).

2. Subtle Mood Changes

• Not severe irritability or depression but low-level lack of enthusiasm or slight difficulty focusing on tasks.
• Reduced mental “sharpness” during cognitive tasks or training.

3. Slight Sleep Disturbances

• Difficulty falling asleep, waking up earlier than usual, or sleep feeling less restorative.
• Not yet severe enough to cause daytime fatigue but noticeable compared to baseline.

4. Digestive or Appetite Changes

• Mild loss of appetite or changes in hunger patterns, possibly signaling low energy availability.
• Feeling slightly bloated or uncomfortable without an obvious cause.

5. Subclinical Biomarker Shifts

• Hormonal shifts or inflammation that may not yet cross diagnostic thresholds but deviate from optimal ranges.
  • Example: Mildly elevated cortisol, reduced testosterone, or higher-than-normal hs-CRP (inflammation marker).

6. Reduced HRV Variability or Flat Trends

• HRV trends don’t decline significantly but show a lack of variability or improvement over time, suggesting limited recovery.

7. Subtle Changes in Efficiency

• Higher heart rates or power-to-heart rate decoupling (drift) during steady aerobic efforts.
• Slight increase in oxygen cost for submaximal efforts, indicating inefficiency.

8. RPE Drift

• A gradual increase in perceived exertion across sessions at the same workload.

Why Does This Happen Without Overt Symptoms?

• Adaptive Reserve: The body is still coping but not optimally adapting, keeping overt symptoms at bay.
• Individual Variability: Some athletes tolerate higher loads better and may not show symptoms until they reach a critical threshold.
• Masked by Other Factors: High motivation, stimulants like caffeine, or psychological factors might temporarily override fatigue signals.

Measuring Hidden Insufficient Recovery

• Trend Analysis: Subtle downward trends over time (e.g., in HRV, power at threshold, mood surveys).
• Performance “Fuzziness”: Variability in daily performance compared to baseline norms.
• Energy Balance: Monitoring total energy availability (TEA) to ensure sufficient intake for recovery.

Addressing Hidden Insufficient Recovery

1. Micro-Recovery Interventions: Add a rest day, reduce intensity for 1-2 sessions, or increase caloric intake.
2. Proactive Deload Weeks: Build structured lower-load weeks before symptoms manifest.
3. Frequent Athlete Check-Ins: Use subjective tools to pick up on any subtle changes in mood, motivation, or sleep.
4. Focus on Sleep Hygiene: Minor tweaks can amplify recovery even in this subtle stage.

By paying close attention to trends and small deviations from normal patterns, you can catch this hidden state early and avoid it escalating into functional overreaching.

[Alex]

Ok I chatted (IM) to Andrea… and did not get the answer I wanted to hear… but what he said is if you want to try to see if you can improve more than last year (obviously).

So during both the build and peak phases, try increasing the intensity slider a bit and try increasing your hours a bit. In general you should see a nice improvement but you will likely be on the edge so you have to monitor all signs of over-reaching/training closely and you should be seeing monthly FTP improvements. If no improvements or any negative signs, catch them early and try lowering volume/intensity of weight training and possibly volume of training slighly.

Andrea says as a pro coach, his job is to push his athletes up to the limit and close to breaking and then manage that state. Doing that as an individual requires a lot of self control and awareness. Obviously @Tayno_25 is very good at pushing himself very hard without breaking.

If at the end of last season you felt good, you also could just increase the intensity this season, without the volume increase and that might be enough to take you to that extra level of improvement.

Andrea also feels so many hours in the gym during build and peak is risky for optimum bike performance or at the minimum, train more on the bike is the best road to increased performance.

[soulo_ridah]

Thank you Alex for all your input.
I however still do not understand how you can say that gym work impacts my training on the bike? As I have mentioned before, I have all the sliders in the program maximized. Volume is capped at 15h weekly. And I have never failed an effort or failed to finish a workout.
I sleep well 7-8h a night and only get up to pee, typically once and then fall right back asleep.
I do gym workouts before I leave for work and when I am back, its on the bike work so…

Also, you can have a look into my profile and see what and how much I am doing if you like.

I feel like this is where the AI based training programs fail, unless you maybe go with adaptive like the TR workouts. Without the coach you are stuck at the same workouts that are based on your FTP. So again, to adjust to that, once would have to test monthly as you say.

And to end it all, first world problems

[Alex]

It will go from 12 to 20 in 16weeks and I actually saw 22 hours but generally I would say focusing on increasing a long ride a bit more than we recommend would be one way to get there. Or just do a bit more zone 1/2 at the end of any workout. Just try to slowly build up to a couple more hours a week that you did last year.

I am not a believer in current AI solutions. I would guess in 5 years something will be much better. I do think TR’s adaptive is much better than TR’s past static plans.

With training there is always a bit of luck that the plan or advice is what is really optimum for a specific individual but the same is true with AI. If you look at TR especially in the past, it did not work for a lot of people. They would burn out, so they were not in the “lucky group.” But yet for others it worked well. lWe take the more conservative approach to “creating luck” but to best optimize it, it takes some personal involvement to make adjustments, if you are feeling like you can do more, especially in the middle of the plan, maybe do a bit more.

Let me try to explain recovery in a simpler way. Improvement = Training + recovery. Correct?

Without recovery you will not make your gains, your gains occur during recovery. Hard training might require 16 hours or more to recover from (most happens during sleep but you might need more than just sleep). If you are weight lifting, you are not recovering, you are forcing your body to require more recovery.

So you train, you take your body lower, it starts recovering when you sleep, it stops when you start weight training. This is not 100% true but mostly true. The more you train the more recovery you need. As I said, I like weight lifting, if I were you, I would keep doing what is fun and not worry so much about cycling performance. Do what you can for cycling performance but focus on enjoyment and not hurting yourself by not getting enough recovery. If you don’t see your sleep pattern changing or any overtraining symptoms you are probably fine. Just pay close attention.

Hope that helps.

[Robert_UCL]

Hi Soulo_ridah,

You still have a question about weight lifting. You don’t understand how less weight lifting will make you a better cyclist.

The fysical aspects involved in weight lifting are different than the ones for endurance. If they were the same you could train for the Tour de France by lifting weights and you could be a powerlifter by only riding your bike, right!?

So the impact of weight lifting make the muscles stronger but not better prepared for endurance sport. In other words: there is a point where muscles either become stronger and more explosive of more suited for endurance.

The muscle is divided in three types of fibers. There is type A and Type B. Type A is a pure endurance fiber. It can’t generate a lot of power, but it can generate that low power over and over. Pro cyclists have a lot of these fibers by nature.

Type B is divided in type I and type II fibers. Type II is a very explosive fiber. It can generate extreme power, but only for a very short time (1-45secs). 100m Sprinters and athletes that excel in events like high jump and long jump have a lot of these fibers naturally.

The type I fibers are very interesting. These are the only fibers that can switch. They can be trained to be explosive or to be more endurance focussed.

If you spend more training training with low watts (say zone 2 biketraining) they will develop as great endurance muscles.
If you spend more time training with high watts (say weight training) they will develop as explosive muscles.

What you need to keep in mind is that a sprinter in cycling still needs an enormous amount of endurance. They still need to ride 150-250km to the finish to take their sprint.

A sprinter in cyclist is not a pure sprinter like a 100m sprinter in athletics. Maybe he could be, but in cycling he needs a lot more endurance.

As far as the weight you put on with your weight training. Sprinters do a lot more weight training than GC riders and they have a lot more difficulty getting over the mountains in the pro peloton.

2 Kg less makes the difference of one minute on 1000am. The difference for me between full body weight training or using weights only for the legs and doing bodyweight training for the upper body is around 3 kg.

So when I want to optimize my cycling performance I use weights only for my legs and lower back and do the rest with bodyweight training.

During the build and peak phase of my schedule I go to the gym less often so I an spend more time on the bike and build my endurance engine instead of my explosive engine.

What good is a 400 watt ftp if you can’t use it beause the last 120km’s have left you out of gas!?

Have fun, Coach Robert

[Alex]

I still disagree with the idea in a muscle loss focus (and the associated weight) and related benefits for most health focused athletes. I believe he and most cyclists that are serious about weight lifting don’t want muscle loss, even if it costs a small amount of cycling performance. For elite or pro cyclists, for sure they want everything they can get. My research does agree with your approach that science, and elite/pro cyclists/coaches support the idea of moving from heavy winter to high rep spring/summer.

Muscle loss: As a reference a 70kg rider has about 28kg of muscle. If he goes to serious maintenance mode of training he is not likely to lose more than 1% per month. So in 5 months of reduced strength training could result in a 1kg loss. If he is trying to podium a 6% grade race then yes this could make a noticeable difference but otherwise it’s mostly irrelevant. 1kg makes a small difference (< 1kph) in typical cycling race scenarios again unless you are trying to podium. W/KG goes from 4 to 4.05… again not worth it…

ChatGPT - Weightlifting can indirectly support mitochondrial health, particularly when combined with higher-rep, lower-rest approaches or circuit-style training, which increases oxygen demand and metabolic stress.

So the core of what you are saying makes sense, I just would not focus on the muscle loss benefits. Overall more muscle mass seems to have long term health benefits (up to a point I assume…)

[Robert_UCL]

I agree with you, Alex. It is a matter of marginal gains. It is far less relevant for an amateur, and since he is 67 kg already, he is not likely to lose any muscle at all.

[soulo_ridah]

75kg to be exact. Plenty to loose but there is no way I am willing to.