Zone 2 plus workout (Base++ Coach Jack)

is there a way to do the high-intensity intervals on base ++ workout toward the end instead of the beginning. According to Dr. Inigo San Millan, for the zone 2 training to be beneficial, one should avoid drifting too long into high intensity zone to avoid hormonal disruption that would need 20 to 30 min to reset as we are training that fatmax zone.

Excellent question. We are working on that feature right now. It should be ready in the next week or so. We agree completely with this line of thinking.


Just found a walk around it for now.
I made a copy of the zone 2 with HIT workout.
Using the workout editor and I can literally copy paste those intervals that are in the beginning and paste them at my desired time toward the end. Sweet!


I’m only a recent user of trainerday (and I love the tool, Zwift subscription is gone…). What I do is I create my own trainingsplans. I have HIIT training plans with or without warmup, Zone2 plans and active recovery plans (with or without warmup). Then I just combine them while riding. A great feature of trainerday !

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I love it. You are using this exactly how I envisioned this :slight_smile:

Last night I did a HIIT session, followed by active recovery ride. Exactly like the tool is designed to do :

Which made me think : does anybody knows a study that researched how long it takes after a high intensity interval for your body to be back at the “zone 2 energy system” (so the fat based energy system). Dr. Inigo San Milan says in one of the many videos : “it takes half an hour to be back to zone2.” Now what I’m wondering :

  • Has this “half an hour” ever been studied ?

  • Is that “trainable” ? Things like “max heartrate” can’t be trained, but I would assume your body can adapt to how fast it goes back to the zone 2 energy system. Imagine you could train this and bring the half an hour back to 15 minutes. That would be a major advantage to have.

I’m curious, didn’t have the time to research myself, but planning on doing that as soon as I find time :slight_smile:

Maffetone has done the most research on this. He would say that you may disrupt your aerobic progress for days or longer. It depends on a lot of factors, like your personal stress levels. I think this is so highly individual and their is no clear way to define what it means to be “back” at least at this point that I am not sure any study could show anything. Unless you specifically mean getting back to a specific level of fat burning percentage. That would be measurable, and might have studies.

I would say your own study into Maffetone and MAF tests and spending months doing 100% below AeT and watching your HR to Power ratio using a MAF test and then introducing high intensity to that would help answer that on a personal level.

My total guess is getting back to a recovered state is very trainable. It’s partially a combination of your work capacity, stress, performance levels. More related to your 30 minute question, my other guess is that it might be related to heart rate recovery. If you have very fast heart rate recovery like elite athletes do, then you can get back to high fat burning zone.

Hi, I am very new to both cycling training and this app. (BTW: so far I really like it :slight_smile: But I have some knowledge from running (middle-distance to ultra) and nutrition. My thoughts: 1. All these zones are constructs; there isn’t even a sharp bend in the lactat-curve and the body is at every intensity burning a mixture of carbs and fats. So it’s not about flipping a switch. 2. Why is nobody talking about nutrition? Eat a low/zero carb, moderate protein, high fat meal for dinner, sleep and do your workout in a fasted state the next morning; some HIT-Intervalls in the beginning to burn the remaining carb storage – and than your body is using almost only fats for the rest of the time. (Edit: I have now read a bit more discussions in this forum, and have seen there is a lot of Keto mentioned. So maybe my post is just stating the obvious.)

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Zones are complete constructs!!! :slight_smile: You are totally right there. We obviously have metobolic changes that happen in the body. We call one of these “Zone 2.” Zone 2 power is less useful then zone 2 heart rate. Z2 HR is probably closer to ones AeT/LT1 and Zone 2 is much friendlier and simpler way of thinking of it.

Dr Seiler suggests easy and hard but some days sweet spot is moderate and some days it’s hard. It depends on duration and % of FTP and ultimately how you are feeling/performing that day.

I would say training is less controversial or does not insight as much passion as diet related stuff does. I don’t mind discussing it but I try to be more inclusive of other peoples beliefs. There are many smart people that have very different opinions. In both training and diet but I feel like evidence based science and the best coaches have more alignment in training.

I personally try to minimize process carbs (try is the key word) and eat carbs after fiber, fat and protien, but I don’t think super low carbs, especially healthy ones is the best idea. It’s pretty hard to imagine that fresh broccoli is a bad idea. I also think it depends on you as an individual. Some of us are more carb intollerage or insulin resistant than others. For the later, watching carbs or at the minimum watching glucose/insulin spikes and sustained elevation levels becomes more important. I fall into this group but for others carbs can be a reasonable source of energy.

I do think much of the cycling industry is a bit too adicticted to quick fix processed carbs, especially while cycling but if they don’t have any negatives (excess inflamation… weight gain…) due to this, I am not sure the harm is the end of the world. As we know as you age things change and we have to get better and matching our diet to our body.

I am also huge proponent of sleep. I think this group here is a bit different then say the TR crowd. Many of us are older and theoretically wiser and just trying to find what works with us. Been in years of debates about what is best and ready to just move on. As I said I love discussing this stuff in a positive way. I and one other user here get in deep discussions over very different opinions. Calories In/Out vs insulin and after lots of talking have come to a pretty similar mutual opinion on this matter :slight_smile:

Here was the discussion that kicked that off…

Thanks for your reply, Alex. I totally agree that nutrition is an almost religious topic nowadays, and I would try to avoid kicking of battles around that. Hence my suggestion was just a short term intervention (one meal and training in a fasted state) for achieving the goal of (temporary) fat metabolism. With the risk of being too off-topic (and apologises to the TO): I really appreciate the general tone of this community –not so much hard core semi-pro racing style, but more general fitness, health, longevity focused. At least as far as I read in the last few hours. And I just have ordered the Maffetone Method book. I knew his training principles, but had no idea, how holistic his approach is. And I am of these older and (hopefully) wiser athletes, too. Thanks for your great work.

Yes, I fully agree. I am working on building up a youtube channel. I totally (via Maffetone’s suggestions) agree that people should test out training in a fasted state. I used to be able to run 3-hours in a fasted state.

I have never done an ultra, I am very envious of you. I think Maffetone fully embodies your thinking and you will love his material.

Real interesting discussion. Zones are clearly a construct and even the top specialist don’t agree completely on how to define them. Interesting videos available on the comparison between them. Where you even learn that for one person the different constructs align quite well, while for another person they are significantly different.
That said, the way I look at it is very pragmatic : the zones for me are about what is the main energy system that is being used. And I agree with kstoeb : it’s not an on/off switch, it’s more about the dominant system. I has an interesting experience this week on exactly that topic. After the hint of Alex I started reading the work of Dr. Maffetone. I want to loose some weight before a big cycling challenge in July, so I changed my nutrition. Not in a religious way. But I basically stripped all processed foods and avoid as much carbs as possible. 2 finding : I am loosing ways after about 2 weeks. But : I"m struggling with the training schedule I’ve been doing for several months now. Yes, I also got a cold and there’s different other things that might impact it but : clearly my nutrition has something to do with it. Last night I had a HIIT session planned, which I felt I simply wouldn’t be able to do with the “Maffetone food” only. So I got myself a gel before the training and one during the training blocks. It worked :slight_smile: Is this scientific. Of course not, just trying to find out what works.
I will have a look at this continuous glucose monitor. I believe this is what got this female pro cyclist disqualified in the Strade and this makes total sense. I was looking for one that I can buy actually, the one the pros are using can’t be bought where I live.
And my bigger ambition is still to look into non invasive lactate meter technology that gives permanent feedback :slight_smile:

People love zones, so I hate to bash them too much, but in general I am not a fan of the current systems. Maybe 3 zones that daily self adjust :slight_smile: Yes, exactly, dominant system.

Yeah super low carbs can be taxing on your body, especially in the beginning and might have contributed to lowering your immunity.

I would say training consistency is most important not training intensity. As you can imagine gels are not healthy but for sure they work. I also try to keep processed carbs at minimum and am ok with my weight but happy to lose a little more. Some times I just need a carb boost to feel motivated. I use something called GlycoFuse. I am convinced it is healthier but that might not be true. Less glycimic rush but still gives that required energy. It’s kind of expensive but I don’t have it very often. It’s made for serious long term endruance athletes but I use it is a quick energy boost so the designed use case. I have not tested it with glucose monitor yet.

Yes the female pro got busted, it seems strange.

Apple is working on non-invasive. It will be amazing if it happens. Almost all the systems use the same one, Freestyle Libre 2/3. In Europe you can buy them online. I was buying them on Ebay.

In this case I just like to use the word “Zone 2” as a simple term to represent easy training at the point that you don’t really feel your breath much different than walking at a moderate pace.

How do determine the amount of hours to start off base++ ?

I have no issues riding for 4-5 hours outside on any given day and ride about 300-350km weekly, but I had 3.5hrs scheduled yesterday and I did only 3hrs and then had to quit because I could no longer move the pedals by the end of the 3 hours.

I took a break after the first workout, which was 90min. I fueled up, took a 15min break then jumped back into the 2nd part. I was struggling to even get to the half way point of the 2nd part and by the end I could hardly move the pedals and I eventually had to quit and was unable to complete the last 30 mins.

Did I not fuel enough or does the amount of hours need adjustment or could my ftp be too high?

My HR was 125-130 during the first workout and 120 during the 2nd of that helps

Don’t forget that riding outdoors for 4-5 hours has a considerable amount of coasting, which you don’t have indoors… And for most people, indoor FTP is quite a bit lower then outdoor FTP.
But if you ride 300-350km per week an regular bases, you should be able to ride 3hr plus indoors if the intensity is set correctly. Keep your HR lower then 180-age and make sure that you hydrate enough. Use a fan, or better multiple fans, to make sure that you’re not overheating. Overheating and dehydration are significantly reducing performance.
3.5hr indoor is clearly not something that you can handle at this moment. Ease into it by working up from 2-2.5hr. Give your body enough time to adapt. Overdoing it, will set you back, so give it some time.

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Thank you! The tiny fan that I have is proving to not be enough for certain rides.

Yes, sounds like for the longer z2 rides I will need to play it by ear and gradually work my way up.