Base Training/Zone 2 Question

Training and Performance Fundamentals
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Trying to decide on a Base Training plan. I’ve done mostly Systm/TR the last few years, but think it was overdoing so I’m happy I found TrainerDay! But even now on Trainer Day in just the regular Base plan, with my FTP of 310, I am often over what I have best guessed as the top of my Zone 2 range at 128-132 (54 years old).

After listening to a lot of Seiler/Maffetone based podcasts, I’m thinking of just making my own Base plan using TrainerDay HR function:

10-12 Hours/week
1 Rest Day
5 Days in Zone 2 (60-90 rides around 124 bpm, 2-4 hour rides closer to 120 bpm)
1 Day Seiler 4x8 Intervals
3/1 Recovery weeks
Run this for 3 cycles (12 weeks)

Then I’d still have 2 months of build and 2 months of peak before my A race in mid June.

This almost seems too easy/basic to me, and part of my brain says just do the power based plan and work harder, but from what I’m hearing this may be a better way to go.

Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

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Sorry I am likely to confuse you even more :)…

So, I am big Maffetone fan, and while I love Seiler’s core message, and he proved at some level that in the short term his 80/20 is better than 4 weekly sweet spot workouts. I think the main advantage of Seiler’s approach is it is a dead simple training plan and it is a reasonable approach. I think it misses some core fundamentals of training. So I believe unless you are seeking dead simple annual training plan with no periodization I don’t think it’s optimum, but at the same time their is no “proof” that what I am suggesting is correct. One of the big benefits of hard VO2max training is that it taxes both your aerobic system and your anaerobic system. This produces fast results to reach peak performance. Long term you really only need to reach peak performance prior to race or event season which for most here is outdoors in the late spring.

So optimizing short term anaerobic gains for a long time does not make a lot of sense. It causes a lot of stress with limited benefit. You can only improve anaerobically for about 8-16 weeks. So taking more of a progressive approach makes a lot more sense. And focusing your hardest efforts (including 4X8) to a peak period of training. Also I would say very few elites follow Seiler’s training approach. I agree 100% they are polarized in their training intensities but almost all have a much more heavily periodized approach with more variety in training intensities and types including many or most still do pure base periods (no idea what %).

So for Seiler, he likes indoor Zwift races year round I believe, so really for him yearly polarized makes a lot more sense. Keep in top form all year round without burning yourself out. But I don’t think this optimizes for long term to get small increases each year, it’s much more likely to peak and just stay there.

So if your desires are closer aligned with what I believe his are then it’s likely good.

So with regards to Maffetone, I think you are missing one of the most fundamental points he makes. Which is start pure 100% below AeT (low heart rate) training and monitor your progress with MAF tests. Seeing continual improvement between HR/power ratio will inspire you to keep doing it, once you start seeing this improvement then you can try adding in more anaerobic or hard training 1 day a week and see if that stalls your aerobic improvement. If it does STOP and go back to pure base. I personally have gone through and witnessed both the progress and the stopping of progress by adding more and more intensity.

You could try by starting with this hybrid approach but then if you are not seeing aerobic progress because you are not following Maffetone’s suggestion everything gets a bit more scary and you might think you must go back to traditional training… If you sleep very well, get super good recovery, low stress life, not too old and do his fasted zone 2 rides, so everything correct except you add a 4x8 once a week, the risks are reduced that you won’t see progress.

So I would say either you buy into Maffetone or you don’t :slight_smile: I think if you understood how small the risk is you would jump into this no problem. You will start feeling out of shape and this is scary but hopefully you starts seeing MAF test progress before that happens, it lowers the scariness :slight_smile:

So I know I have not answered all questions here, but helped give something to chew on.

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When I say periodized, at the most basic level this means going from something like 100/0 or possibly 95/5 time in zone (TIZ) to closer to a 85/15 TIZ at peaks season. Again this partially depends on training volume and your ability to recover. Some people can handle higher ratios because they recover fast enough and do better with a less polarized approach at least for part of the year.

Seiler suggests 90/10 year round which means you are not periodizing your training intensities.

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Good call on the likelihood that you’d confuse me even more :wink: lol

But thank you for the good information and response!

Based one what I understand of what you are saying, and I do believe in some periodization and don’t want to run 90/10 year around, I would probably be better served to stay 100% in Zone 2 for the base period, and save the 4x8 or anything with intensity for the build and peak phases. In that case, I would adapat my above plan to be something more like this?

10-12 Hours/week
1 Rest Day
6 Days in Zone 2 (60-90 rides around 124 bpm, 2-4 hour rides closer to 120 bpm)
3/1 Recovery weeks (Recovery weeks just scale back to 8 hours, or in only zone 2 base don’t really need the recovery weeks?)
Run this for 3 cycles (12 weeks)

Then I’d still have 2 months of build and 2 months of peak before my A race in mid June. This is when I could mix in the 8x4 or other intensity as long as I keep it in the 80/20 or 85/15 range (which for me would be one day a week).

Or my other option would still be the power based base plan you have here, but knowing that takes me out of my Zone 2 HR range quite often?

Thanks again for the help, I truly appreciate it and am learning a lot. You’ve earned a regular customer.

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To me that sounds 100% perfect other than with 100% below AeT I don’t think you need recovery weeks but if you feel like you do, for sure take them. Can’t wait to hear how amazing you feel next season. You might be shocked at how motivated/energized you feel during peak season.

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Coach Jack power based plans are also good. I would say it’s important for you to believe in what you are doing and trusting that a 100% below AeT base period will work. This can be a bit too big of leap of faith for some people and they start going crazy and feel they need more.

If you are not doing MAF tests you will think you are going backwards and your FTP will drop a bit, especially from an FTP test perspective which has some level of anaerobic contribution. Your 60-80 minute TT pace probably would not be significantly impacted and should even improve if you are doing it perfectly.

So the Maffetone, San Milan, Seiler “Zone 2” is a belief system that many have seen work for them, but for sure a more traditional periodization structure like Coach Jack hits on some of the most important components of mostly easy (avoiding burn out, progressive overload), even though the definition of easy is a bit more lose in this case.

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That all sounds great and makes sense. If I do an hour set at certain HR and repeat that to see my power go up at that HR, that is basically the MAF test right?

I think from what you’re saying I’m in on this plan, and yes, will be bought in completely. I don’t mind losing a bit of FTP or anaerobic gains short term. Basically sounds like I’m sacrificing a bit of ceiling, short term, to focus on and raise my floor, as raising your floor takes longer but the ceiling will come back in a shorter window and should be even higher if I raise my floor successfully.

I’m excited. I think this could pay off compared to the last few seasons when I went harder in offseason and felt burnt out by mid summer.

I’ll for sure come back and let you know how it goes. Thank you again for the great insight!

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This is it 100% you get it. I am happy for you. Maffetone has a bit more protocol to his test but in reality you have captured to core concept. He specifically suggests

  1. Fasted training
  2. very slow warmup gradually bring HR to a bit below your aerobic threshold over 12 to 15 minutes (don’t shock your body to switch to carb burning)
  3. Measuring mile 1 to mile 5 (after the warmup) individually and compare the HR for those to power (pace for runners).

So you might see progress in 1 of those individual miles, I don’t remember the exact reasoning or thinking behind this but I think in most cases just looking at HR vs Power from 15-20 minutes is enough. Also your breathing can drastically affect hr/power as well as temperature and pre-training activities. It’s pretty sensitive but you will see a clear pattern over a period of time if it is working.

The biggest goal from all of this is to turn your body into an incredibly efficient fat burner. So just like Mark Allen experienced at first it felt incredibly easy and after a long time of pure low HR training (I don’t remember how long) that his body is so efficient that he is doing low HR intervals. People can get to the point that HR is low and power is approaching upper tempo. So it feels hard but your heart is not working so hard so ultimately more sustainable. And yes you will be bringing up your floor.

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Nice. Bonus that the fat burning & fasted training fit perfectly as I was also looking to cut some weight during this period. Excited for the new plan. You are awesome and I really appreciate it. I’ll let you know how it goes.

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Hi PepperTransAm,

It is nice to see you are open to new training suggestions. That is part of the fun of your journey.

I completely agree with Alex. You should try one thing at a time. You already saw the value of that point.

There is one other point I would like to adress. Doing one single work-out for weeks on end is not a good thing. You always want to mix things up. For your body, as wel as for your own interest.

I’m specifially talking about he 4x8 intervals. I would start with 4x2 and work your way up to 4x8. Research shows that shorter intervals are way more effective, because the time you need to focus is shorter.

Also, from a overload point of view a progressive series of work-outs makes more sense than doing the same work-out over and over again. Research shows that doing the same work-out over and over will make you progress in the first three weeks, than stop and eventually even lose some fitness.

Therefore, I always create three week cycles and build cycle by cycle towards a greater fitness and more race specific intevals.

Have lots of fun, Coach Robert

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Hi Robert,

Thanks for the response. And yes, it is a ton of fun. I love working to get in the best shape of my life in my 50s and figuring out the best way to keep improving!

However, I am a bit confused. You mention agreeing with Alex completely, but seem to be recommending the intervals, though with a progression rather than repeating the same sets. However, during base season Alex had suggested doing pure Maffetone, which would keep me in Zone 2 every ride and preclude any intervals for at least a while, if not fully until my build phase. Are you suggesting I should start those now but in smaller doses in the beginning with 4x2 progressing towards 4x8 by the time I get to the build, or sticking with the Maffetone now but applying that progression to the build phase?

Thanks again, learning a lot here!

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I will partially respond here. Robert means once you get to your build period doing 4X8 over and over again does not make sense. I have never heard of any coach recommending this (Dr Seiler is not really a “real” coach, I believe he just likes this and it is simple and produces reasonable results). It goes against training principals like progressive overload and variety for example. But at the same time it can produce reasonable results if you don’t mind suffering a lot. There are physically easier and more efficient ways to do this, but that one is dead simple.

Dr Seiler is a scientist that proved something very valuable. Mostly easy and minimal amounts of hard produced better results than consistently moderately hard. He also proved high TSS is not better than lower TSS.

Robert and I agree on a lot regarding the base fundamentals of a health first approach to training, his programs look different than Coach Jack or my suggestions but ultimately we think more a like than different.

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Got it. Yeah, the 4x8 intervals do sound simple, but I was never married to them, was an idea from a podcast for a simple base period but I think I’ve moved on from that.

My current plan, after the above discussion, is to stick to Maffetone/Zone 2 (using your HR function in the app) during the base period (about 10-12 hours/week for 12 weeks), then I threw on a Polarized Build phase (about 8 weeks) and a Big Days Peak phase (also about 8 weeks) leading up to some 100km-100mi gravel races this summer.

Is that a sound plan in your opinion?

Appreciate you both.

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4x8 the way Seiler prescribed them, near max effort ending up probably at 105% of FTP, are going to sting quite a lot.

There’s a Coach Jack block that simulates this. It is VO2 Max Long under custom.

Dave

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Yes, the Coach Jack block VO2max at least are progressive and while painful not like 4X8… I think they are fine, I think constant 4 X 8s is for a specific type of specimen :slight_smile:

So while being a firm believer in a more polarized approach what I believe is through the year the ratio can change. So you might start at 100/0 and end at 80/20 or even more hard work (time in zone)… but still over the year you will be very polarized.

I would agree with Robert that even during a build period you should do more variety. I believe the Coach Jack serious Italian gives the widest variety for a build period but different people can benefit more from different types of variety. Generally 3 focused workouts that are progressive including 1 long ride a week is a very traditional and very good plan. Your time in zone will still be pretty Polarized even though you are doing 3 focused workouts a week.

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Great. I have some time to think on that while I do my base and see how I feel, but that is again some good information. Thank you.

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VO2 Max Long will get close to it.

See below. These are 7 minute intervals.

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image938×711 58.5 KB

Dave

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Yes, from our perspective, progressively building to 4x8 or 4x7 is fine especially during a peak period for example. But just doing 4 x 8 themselves for a long time is just too much suffering for the benefit for most people, especially when you first start out with 4 x 8s. So with Coach Jack you build up to these in most cases in a sustainable manner.

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That’s why I pitched it so if Pepper wants to try a Seiler type approach that is more sustainable, a custom CJ plan with VO2 Max Long is an option!

Dave

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Thanks!