I completed VO2 Max Long #4 tonight. This is 4 x 4 minute intervals at 108%.
I completed a Joe Friel style 30-minute long form FTP test last week so I’m confident in what power I can hold, but haven’t done any Zone 5 stuff in a while.
I found the workout tough but doable. I may stick with these once a week in addition to zone 2, but I think I would go back to VO2 Max Long #2 (4 x 3 minutes) and work up from there.
The suprathreshold intervals are good for mental toughness.
There’s a good article below on Seiler 4 x 8 minute intervals, I’m not at that level yet but it suggest you should each 90% of max HR during the last interval. These 4 X4s brought me to 89% during the last interval.
Nice job!!! I like this training plan in general. Meaning slowly building up VO2max intervals and zone 2 the rest of the week. It’s healthier and smarter polarization from my perspective.
I disagree with the statement “you should reach 90%” this is very wrong information This appears to be the case of a study where N=1.
Doing anaerobic work is a combination of FTP (CP) and W’ (anaerobic work capacity). Unless you are factoring your W’ into these interval targets (time or intensity) their is no way different athletes will arrive at the same maximum HR or breaking point. Still I see nothing wrong with this approach to training but if you can’t ever get to 4 X 8 at 100+X% and/or your not at 90% HR don’t think it is lack of mental will power or ability, it’s just a different physical athlete power profile.
If you do a 2-3 minute max average power test and get accurate CP and W’ data then we could more accurately figure out where you are likely to break down and a closer evaluation of what you should be able to do. Although factoring where that will be on the HR scale is another factor that is indeterminant and I know of no clear way to calculate that but I could ask Andrea what he thinks.
Actually that is ok. I realize your interpretation or usage was slightly affecting my “wrong” statement. You are doing CJ, Fixed 108% and varying length (CJ style).
This is the problem with trying to follow their model of fixed length 4X8 with CJ fixed intensity (mostly). As long as you adjust the intensity to get your HR to the target HR of 90% that is likely fine.
So for some people might be 4X8 might be 102% to reach 90% at the end for others might be 108% of FTP. So you either need to adjust the duration or the intensity of the intervals to keep yourself at a reasonable target. This was my point.
So the other thing will be that different people can handle different peak sustained HR values, but that’s likely to be between 85-95% for a 4X8. So you could do 4X8 now but probably at 102% or something and slowly increase that intensity (target watts) over time.
So in the end you can keep doing it like you are but as the length gets longer you might need to adjust the intensity to keep you at that 90% target but even that is slightly arbitrary but at the end of a peak phase should be pushing close to failure for maximum results. (for a shorter period of time).
Anyway your plan is fine you will find out if you “make it” or not just realize you might not get to 108% at 4X8 due to your own physical make up. Maybe it will be 102%, but I guess it is likely to be closer to 105%+ with your accurate FTP test. Could even be more.
I think your points are right. Regardless, 4 x 8 minutes are beyond where I personally want to go.
I’m going to ride zone 2 the rest of the week and then go back to VO2 Max Long #2 or #3 next Tuesday and start to build up from there.
Once it is warm enough outside I will probably stop high intensity rides on the trainer, that will probably be early March. I only expect to reach VO2 Max Long workouts #8 before moving on so those will cap at 5 minute intervals, plenty hard enough for me.
You are welcome. Yes, this is it. Meaning varying length or intensity are both good solutions. We prefer length variability more so than intensity but their is no science or any proven facts on what is better higher intensity or lower VO2max intervals… I would say that level of detail is very much “it depends.” 8 minute even at threshold is rather intense other than outdoors trying to drop your friend on a climb or a race…
So best bet is to find what is the most fun or least un-fun which sounds like you are currently in a great place and if the incremental CJ increases come without too much suffering that will be optimum.
Doing research and experimenting with different intervals is a great way to get better.
Since yesterday was my birthday, I’m a little late in the discussion, but I agree with everything Alex has said.
I never advise anyone to do more than 4 or 5 minutes of VO2max. It doesn’t make sense to me. The only exception to that rule is when you have a race you really want to win with a deciding climb where 8 minutes are long enough to create a big gap and get you over the climb at the same time.
Otherwise it makes more sense to me to do either threshold (so a little less) or a “real” VO2max with a higher intensity.
Research suggests that shorter VO2max intervals make it easier to maintain good power throughout the interval and, therefore, more effective.
Rest is another factor to account for. A 4x8 workout will need a lot more recovery time than a 4x4.
I always tell my clients that enough is enough and not every workout should bring you to the limit.
What that limit is, is very personal. Like I started: you are doing great, experimenting like this and finding out what you can do.
I do invite you to experiment in a different direction. Now that you have found what your limit is (5-minute intervals) try to find the minimum you need to do to create the same level of fitness.
Look at your recovery speed. Maybe a 4-minute interval is already enough.
I plan workouts like this at the end of a period as a test and to develop the mental toughness you already mentioned.
You know what is interesting is that is what I find recently. In younger years it felt like my cardiovascular system or breathing hard would usually be my failure and now my legs always feel weak first. Maybe some kind of decrease in mitochondria or something.
But I think you are right in that HIIT will hit my lungs… but it seems that balance has shifted a lot recently but I never really thought about this until now. Something interesting to research. Maybe finding optimal intensity that fatigues both your legs and lungs at the same time?
It’s complicated, but likely yes, mitochondrial function may decline faster than the heart’s ability to move oxygen in many individuals during aging. However, this is not a universally applicable rule, and many factors contribute to the variability in how aging impacts different bodily systems.
I don’t think 108% is hard enough for the CVD system to fail, I think this would be a muscular fatigue failure for most people, I’m not a physiologist though.
It just doesn’t produce fish out of water breathing like you’d get at 120%.
Research has already been done on this topic. It is a total package, too: from age 35 and up, the body produces less and less on different levels. The amino acid Arginine, for instance. You need this for the blood vessels to get wider. Therefore, it plays a key role in recovery.
Often, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. As we get older, we tend to take it a little less seriously. Been there and done that. Recognize that feeling!? Not just on the training side but on the nutrition side as well.
Last week I rode the Drenthe200. It is a brutal mtb race during wintertime. Depending on the weather, there are 25 to 60 km of axl deep mud to plow through. When I told my parents I enlisted for this race, they said: should you still do that at your age?
But, hé, we love what we do, right?
And you are right, Dave: that last 12% is so much harder.
This appears to be the case of a study where N=1.
